Power Points for powers - solves a lot of issues

CapnZapp

Legend
As I see it, 4E avoided magic points because that would lead to spell-casters drying up and becoming worthless (just like spell slots per level).

So they created this whole at-will/encounter/daily framework instead.

But then they went ahead and added healing surges, making characters dry up and have to rest anyway!?!
 

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Sadrik

First Post
It's a nice idea but it needs a bit more balancing. Warlocks and Wizards would get heavily "nerfed" in this as they usually do not have any Strength or Dexterity. And it's not like they're the strongest classes available.

This gets even worse when you consider that the basic attack of a ranger (for example) would be about as strong as certain at wills.

Basic Ranged attack with Longbow is
1d10 + Dex

Eldritch Blast =
1d10 + Cha or Con

Actually the Longbow is better since it has 4 times the range >_>

You could make it a class feature that they can use their prime stat for ranged attacks though.

Charisma/Wisdom based Paladins/Clerics would get nerfed as well.

Do you feel that a first level character shooting 110 EBs a day is too little?
 

Sadrik

First Post
As I see it, 4E avoided magic points because that would lead to spell-casters drying up and becoming worthless (just like spell slots per level).

So they created this whole at-will/encounter/daily framework instead.

But then they went ahead and added healing surges, making characters dry up and have to rest anyway!?!

Note that these are power points not magic points. I submit not drying up is not very interesting. The idea with this HR is to make it so that characters can dry up and can more freely use their powers (regardless of class).
 

Sadrik

First Post
I tried working on a mana point/power point system, and came across some problems. Check out this thread for the list. Basically, if you want a mana point system in 4E without significant problems, you have to be prepared to rewrite several (overpowered) powers, make it easier for elites/solos to shrug off conditions, and deal with the cleric healing powers in some way.

Also I would recommend having some sort of cost scaling in place so lower-tier powers aren't useless.

The biggest difference between the system you devised and this one is, you have multiple pools of points. Here there is a single pool and if you use more dailies then you will wind up not using as many at-wills and encounter powers during the day. I think this self limits the daily healing powers.

The stun lock problem is in the system anyway - it is part of the game. For instance if various characters all take a stunning power they can hit a creature every round. Long story short this is not a problem insofar as the game system already has it.
 


Sadrik

First Post
Power points schmower points - I meant whatever points, not specific points only for spells.

My point was that first 4E solves the twin problems of novaing and drying up by giving you limited encounter and daily powers but also npn-suck at-wills. This makes novaing difficult, and drying up non-catastrophic. The rest of the day you can still manage without the best powers.

But then they somehow thought you still need to be forced into resting?!

I thought this was the problem, not the solution?

And I fail to see the conceptual difference between a character saying "that's it for today, i'm all outta level nines" and "that's it for today, i'm all outta surges".

I thought they went through all these hoops with powers to enable adventurers to move on for longer, and abolish the short adventure day.

In other words, instead of the rules telling the players when it's time for bed, allow the players to make those decisions.

"Do we trudge on even though we're out of dailies, or do we rest. Either way, it's up to us - it's a real decision and not something forced down our throats."

Drying up should not be catastrophic, use a basic attack. This HR is attempting to deal with three of my concerns flexibility of powers, speed of combat and unlimited use of powers.

Currently 4e has two ways to go to be forced into bed: when your dailies are spent and your healing surges are spent. Under this HR, your dailies just send you down the road more quickly to needing to take an extended rest.

Let me ask you in your game, does your party rest after they spend their dailies? Do the rest after they spend all of their healing surges? I don't think it is so cut and dry, it is not in the games I have played.
 
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77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
Under the proposed rule, "drying up" is not such an issue because most of your PP come back after an encounter.

One problem I see is powers of different levels costing the same amount. At 10th level I have 30 PP. My 9th level daily, 5th level daily, and 1st level daily all cost 10 PP. Why on earth would I ever use the 1st level one??? For the same price I can use my awesome 9th level daily!

Also, under these rules, a player can figure out which is their most effective encounter power, and just spam it out repeatedly. I find such repetition boring. Tracking power use per-power prevents repetition and forces players to decide when to use each power.

-- 77IM
 

Sadrik

First Post
My question would be is it really all that bad to to "spam" a power? Players get a better power and they use it more. Quite honestly, under this system they will try and get more "utilitarian-attack" powers rather than the more up front best damage/area powers. This would give them more versatility. When they know they can always use their best attack power every round (limited) it frees up their selections for sub-par powers that comes in handy in "specific situations". This could create more variety in characters. I likey. :)
 

Zelc

First Post
The biggest difference between the system you devised and this one is, you have multiple pools of points. Here there is a single pool and if you use more dailies then you will wind up not using as many at-wills and encounter powers during the day. I think this self limits the daily healing powers.
Not quite...
All but 2 PP are recovered after each encounter or after a "rest". So after 8 encounters a character would be -16 PP.
So the Cleric can just rest one extra time and lose 2 PPs. Only two dailies are needed to heal everyone to pretty much full: Consecrated Ground and Mass Cure Light Wounds. In return, no one needs to use healing surges to heal during downtime. This only happens if the party has a Cleric or someone with similar powers; a Warlord cannot do this. Are you OK with the reduced demand on healing surges, and the increased power of Clerics?

The stun lock problem is in the system anyway - it is part of the game. For instance if various characters all take a stunning power they can hit a creature every round. Long story short this is not a problem insofar as the game system already has it.
Yes, but they can use the stunning power only once per encounter or day (most of them per day). Even the really abusable ones require a very high level currently, like the Paladin's Stunning Smite + the Demigod's Divine Miracle. There are ways to nerf a monster's saves so stuff like Legion's Hold lasts a long time, but if the monster gets lucky and rolls a 20 or the player misses, then it's gone. It's also usable only in one or two fights. With a mana point system, these limits are largely removed, especially if you can recover uses of daily powers easily.

My question would be is it really all that bad to to "spam" a power? Players get a better power and they use it more. Quite honestly, under this system they will try and get more "utilitarian-attack" powers rather than the more up front best damage/area powers. This would give them more versatility. When they know they can always use their best attack power every round (limited) it frees up their selections for sub-par powers that comes in handy in "specific situations". This could create more variety in characters. I likey. :)
Yes, it would be bad. Take, for instance, Blade Cascade. This Ranger daily power deals damage in the mid-100 range per use (this is after the nerf). Not only will the melee Ranger rarely use any other power, your monsters will also die very quickly. Additionally, all melee characters will probably try to pick this attack up and use it every chance they get. Alternatively, consider Divine Regeneration used every battle. With Regen 28, characters are extremely difficult to kill. Are you OK with that?

The 1 use of a power per day or encounter means if WotC messes up and creates an overpowered power, then the effects are still limited. A lazy method of balancing powers IMO, but an important one given the powers currently in existence. Removing this barrier means you have to nerf the overpowered powers yourself.




If you want to use a mana point system, go for it. I think the flexibility of such a system would be more fun than the current 4E system. Just be aware that you have to do a lot more thought and work to prevent it from being broken.
 
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77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
My question would be is it really all that bad to to "spam" a power?
...
When they know they can always use their best attack power every round (limited) it frees up their selections for sub-par powers that comes in handy in "specific situations".

Yes, it would. Here's how it would go.

1. You have your best power. In most situations, you just use that, over and over and over and over again, for the duration of the encounter.

2. In "specific situations," you figure out which power would be most effective, and then use that, over and over and over and over again, for the duration of the encounter.

In other words, once you figure out which tactic works best, the encounter might as well be over. It would only get interesting if the DM shook things up by introducing new monsters, changing the terrain, etc.

Granted, this wouldn't be the end of the world (many other RPGs use such a tactic without being too boring), but still I think that per-power usage is an improvement because it forces an interesting tactical decision.

-- 77IM
 

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