Speaking of High Power / High Level...

Y'know, in the ~20 years I've been a gamer, I've never actually played in a high-level game, outside of CRPG's. And what I found in those was that hazards came in two varieties: Yawn, and Holy Crap!

In other words, the encounter was so easy that I didn't even bother to buff up, I just walked through, obliterating everything in my path, or it was so insanely difficult that my entire party was wiped out in the first, second, or third round.

Anyway, the game in which I'm a player is now reaching 9th-10th, which hardly epic, I know, but we're starting to make waves. So I'm curious about people's experiences with high-level play. Should we start being on the lookout for this "no challenge vs. insta-kill" dichotomy?

-The Gneech

Should we start being on the lookout for this "no challenge vs. insta-kill" dichotomy?

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In my experience, yes. As you mentioned, playing at the higher levels is somewhat of a rarity. Most campaigns start at the lower levels and getting to the higher levels (12+), takes a while, sometimes over a year. Many campaigns never get to this point.

My point?

By the time you are actually in a group or campaign that goes that long, the group as a whole isn't well-prepared for the higher level play or may even find they don't like it. I definitely fall into this category.

I've been playing 3.x since it came out and have played in a number of different campaigns, most of which started at a low level. I've been in a group for over 2 years now, playing the same campaign. I joined the group at level 6 and 2 years later, we are 14-16th level. The game has changed dramatically. Encounters are either extremely easy or like pulling teeth. Battles takes forever (the group is 5 + DM). And by no fault of anyone, role-playing and story have slowly declined because of the time taken up by combat.

As I said in the other thread, the power creep accelerates after 12th level or so. The game changes. Is everyone's experience the same? Of course not. But the power increase per level after level 12 is much greater than at the low to mid levels, mostly due to spells and magic items.

The_Gneech said:

Anyway, the game in which I'm a player is now reaching 9th-10th, which hardly epic, I know, but we're starting to make waves. So I'm curious about people's experiences with high-level play. Should we start being on the lookout for this "no challenge vs. insta-kill" dichotomy?

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Yes. It's darn hard to balance high-level encounters, there's so many variables the PCs can throw into the mix. In our 12th-13th level game, we were nearly slaughtered by a small group of giant scorpions that our DM expected us to dispatch adroitly and move past. You fail one save versus con-draining poision and everything goes to heck in a hurry.

Conversely, there was an encounter with a quartet of vampires that I think he expected to be fairly tough, especially since they were charming us or something. Our cleric threw up a Magic Circle effect to protect from the domination, and we walked through them with a combo of monkly flurrying and volleys of attack spells and psionics. I'm not sure anybody got hit by anything except a volley of magic missiles from the vampire sorceress.

Beyond 10th, in my experience, the CR system gets increasingly out of whack. Encounters that should be easy might turn into deathtraps, and really big, complicated encounters that should (CR-wise) really challange the party are sometimes bypasssed or defeated with a single spell.

One of the more fun techniques is to not worry so much about making the fights challanging, but to challange the players with logistics. The ogre army is advancing, and the PCs must simultaniously defend six towns, each fifty miles apart, for one week before the army can arrive. A simple plot like that can REQUIRE use of travel spells, divinations, etc...

I have played in some REALLY powerful epic level games (Not in d20) (It was a hero system game where we ended up over a 1000 points) and a handful of what you would describe as a high level to epic level game in d20 (one went from 5-11, one went from 1-12 and one went from 15-22). Now note these are all with the same GM over a long period of time (10+ years)

First I would like to explain that we have a combat maybe once every other game session. It is roleplay and mystery solving heavy. The combats tended to be epic in size and scope so they took a long time. With that caveat, the more powerful the game, the better time I had. I can not speak for everyone in the game, but I know most of the other players felt similarly.

Epic storylines, epic character, intrigue, terrible secrets, saving humanity, our characters names spoken in awe and in story and legend. This is what epic roleplaying is about. Now you can probably attribute that to both the GM and the players, rather than the rules or the level, still there is nothing like fighting in riduculous circumstances and managing to pull it off (In the game d20 game that went epic we once fought a bunch of hiveminded zerg things that could adapt their form, under the arctic circle, where they were trying to destroy a magic pillar. They had these giant beatles which put out a huge anti-magic aura. That was a tactical challenge)

Fighting Orc_68 really seems like quite a let down now.

The_Gneech said:

Anyway, the game in which I'm a player is now reaching 9th-10th, which hardly epic, I know, but we're starting to make waves. So I'm curious about people's experiences with high-level play. Should we start being on the lookout for this "no challenge vs. insta-kill" dichotomy?

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Hmm... no, I think it's very well possible to present reasonable challenges to D&D characters of all levels. It gets tougher for the DM to find something suitable (and many more factors have to be considered, which makes the DMing part itself rather challenging) for the really high levels (like starting at 15th), but that's about it.

Bye
Thanee

It gets tougher for the DM to find something suitable (and many more factors have to be considered, which makes the DMing part itself rather challenging) for the really high levels (like starting at 15th), but that's about it.

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Umm, can you say huge understatement? That's a big "that's about it".

Finding something suitable is pretty much the only thing it's about, at all levels even. It just gets increasingly difficult at the higher levels given the mass amount of variables and options.

I intend to use this house rule in my games from now on, ever since last Friday a CR 11 elder elemental beat up my party of four 10th level PCs, killing two of them.

On Death's Door
Whenever a character is reduced below 0 Hit Points, he begins to take Wound Point damage (characters have WP equal to their Constitution). A character with WP damage suffers a -2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity-based rolls.

Magical healing restores 1 WP for each die of healing.

When a character is reduced below 0 Wound Points, he is unconscious, nearly dead. Keep track of his current WP total, for purposes of healing. However, damage alone will not kill a character. To kill a character, you must force a Fortitude save. A character below 0 WP cannot succeed Fortitude saves, so a coup de grace will always kill him, as will massive damage.

Toss a hero at death's door off a 140-ft. cliff, or into lava, and he'll die. Stab him in the throat as a coup de grace, and he'll die. But just leave him in a burning building, or drop him off a short cliff, and he'll just be horribly mangled when his friends rescue him.

Healing will not return consciousness to him, but it will make him less vulnerable. The Raise Dead spell is replaced with Revive, a 5th level cleric and wizard spell that pulls a character back from death's door. Also, if a character naturally heals to be above 0 Wound Points, he'll revive after a die. Note, though, that people left out in the wilderness to die will probably never recover, since the first creature that gnaws on him a bit will finish him off.

Resurrection still exists, but it's 7th level. Regenerate is lowered to 4th level, because people will be losing limbs and eyes and such a lot more than they'll be dying.

GlassJaw said:

Umm, can you say huge understatement? That's a big "that's about it".

Finding something suitable is pretty much the only thing it's about, at all levels even. It just gets increasingly difficult at the higher levels given the mass amount of variables and options.

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...and thats about it.

For me I don't worry so much about the difficulty of the encounter as long as its entertaining, and challenging beyone rolling a d20 to crack a higher AC. Its fun when I can throw just about anything at my players and watch them figure out a way to not die.

At low levels the encounters are shorter, and the chance of having enough time to figure out whether you're in over your head is a much smaller window.

The_Gneech said:

Should we start being on the lookout for this "no challenge vs. insta-kill" dichotomy?

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You mean you didn't start that at 1st level? Seriously, when an orc can critical hit your fighter in a single strike and kill him, a wizard with fireball and kill half the party, and even a kobold can kill something at 1st level, you've got to realise it's in the nature of the game. Instakill happens, easy fights happen - it's the randomness that makes this game what it is. My experience is that high levels is all about preparation and tactics. You don't have those, you'll die a lot more than if you don't. Of course, you'll still die - the Dice Gods demand it from time to time, but I don't think it's a problem with high level play per se.

Granted, it does take a good DM to design a challenging encounter for high level play, but one dice roll can still mean the difference between and easy fight and an insta-kill. Sleep at 1st level? Greater Command at higher levels. Nature of the game, I'd say.

Pinotage