The Epic Level Handbook, "The 4th Ed of Dungueons and Dragons, for Epic gaming"

Virgil Sagecaster · Apr 17, 2002

Im sure that we all can't wait for the ELH to come out in a few months (I cant......

). But their are some serious issues that WotC forgot to handle in the creation of how to handle Epic Level Gaming! First of all, the first 20 levels of a character are great. For a couple of reasons:

1) It's a SOLID foundation for level progression. IE, all of the Saving Throws, Base Attack Bonus, Feat and Skill progression are the same through the frist 20 levels (the classes are different, but the basic concept is still there).

2) You get these cool little things that help you out in any situtaion, if your fighting The Long Lost Dracolich, a drow rouge is trying to sneak attack you, or you fall off a magically created blimp.......oh yeah, there called Hit Die ( from mine understanding you get a certain amount of hit points, but not Hit Dice with your Con bonus)

3) It makes sense and the d20 Level Progression Concept (d20LPC) could go up intill your heart's content.......

.

So the question here is, " Why is there a fundamental breakdown of the rules and ot the d20LPC? ". I can anwser this question accuratly because of first hand experince: its because PC's gain in immense power in this system. Try creating a 40th level Fighter or Wizard with all of the benifits from the d20LPC. It's truely unbalancing when you can eight or nine attacks in one round!!! My only problem is why couldnt they SLOWED down the benefits, rather than completely change the way how and what benifits you get from level progression............

Another quick question, why couldnt they came out with D&Dg's AFTER the ELH? It would sense because most Dieties have classes that go above 20th level ........

Just Imagine: Mystra, Greater Power
DR 18
Wizard 40, Cleric 40, Archmage 10
(this is strictly made up because I
dont have D&Dg's.......

)

Crothian · Apr 17, 2002

First of all ELH or D&Dg first, it wouldn't have matterered. Wizards would not make a product that is based off anything but the 3 core books. Notice how they reprinted all those domains and feats in the D&Dg. But that is a rant for nother place and time.

I, too, am looking forward to this. I have four NPCs that can only be defined as Epic. The basically survived in enemy territory that was impossible for them to escape from for over 1500 years. Ya, their race lives for a very long time.

Virgil Sagecaster · Apr 17, 2002

Any and All of your Questions/Statements/Input/Complaints/Critism will be appreciate..........

!

Exspecailly from the "Krustman"...........

.

Virgil Sagecaster · Apr 17, 2002

First of all ELH or D&Dg first, it wouldn't have matterered. Wizards would not make a product that is based off anything but the 3 core books

Why not if the 3 core rule books are so balanced?!?

Notice how they reprinted all those domains and feats in the D&Dg.

Didnt know that.........

.

I, too, am looking forward to this. I have four NPCs that can only be defined as Epic. The basically survived in enemy territory that was impossible for them to escape from for over 1500 years. Ya, their race lives for a very long time.

Could you in more detail about this........

.

ThenHeCame · Apr 17, 2002

I'd just wait for the book to come out. Seems easy enough.

Virgil Sagecaster · Apr 17, 2002

I'd just wait for the book to come out. Seems easy enough.

....cant....wait....any....longer....must....have....now....

Upper_Krust · Apr 17, 2002

Hi there!

Virgil Sagecaster said:
Any and All of your Questions/Statements/Input/Complaints/Critism will be appreciate.......... !

Exspecailly from the "Krustman"........... .

Summoned by a mere 10th-level poster! My Spell Resistance has forsaken me!

Virgil Sagecaster said:
Im sure that we all can't wait for the ELH to come out in a few months (I cant...... ). But their are some serious issues that WotC forgot to handle in the creation of how to handle Epic Level Gaming! First of all, the first 20 levels of a character are great. For a couple of reasons:

1) It's a SOLID foundation for level progression. IE, all of the Saving Throws, Base Attack Bonus, Feat and Skill progression are the same through the frist 20 levels (the classes are different, but the basic concept is still there).

The basic concepts all progress, albeit slightly differently and unmodified for classes.

eg.
BAB scales +1/2 levels for every (and any) class once you ascend beyond 20 total levels.

Virgil Sagecaster said:
2) You get these cool little things that help you out in any situtaion, if your fighting The Long Lost Dracolich, a drow rouge is trying to sneak attack you, or you fall off a magically created blimp.......oh yeah, there called Hit Die ( from mine understanding you get a certain amount of hit points, but not Hit Dice with your Con bonus)

You still get HD (as standard) from Epic Levels - ignore the foolishness of the Forgotten Realm Campaign Setting 'Epic Rules'. They are redundant.

Virgil Sagecaster said:
3) It makes sense and the d20 Level Progression Concept (d20LPC) could go up intill your heart's content....... .

Initially I thought so too - but the disparity in abilities is just going to be too wide a gulf to do this.

Virgil Sagecaster said:
So the question here is, " Why is there a fundamental breakdown of the rules and ot the d20LPC? ". I can anwser this question accuratly because of first hand experince: its because PC's gain in immense power in this system. Try creating a 40th level Fighter or Wizard with all of the benifits from the d20LPC.

I have done...and I didn't stop at 40!

Virgil Sagecaster said:
It's truely unbalancing when you can eight or nine attacks in one round!!! My only problem is why couldnt they SLOWED down the benefits, rather than completely change the way how and what benifits you get from level progression............

Your attacks cease at 20th-level. BAB ascends. Attacks don't..

Virgil Sagecaster said:
Another quick question, why couldnt they came out with D&Dg's AFTER the ELH? It would sense because most Dieties have classes that go above 20th level ......

It wouldn't have made any difference to the content which was designed to only refer to the Core Rulebooks.

Though I agree the gods should have Epic Levels; I understand why WotC didn't go that route.

Virgil Sagecaster said:
Just Imagine: Mystra, Greater Power
DR 18
Wizard 40, Cleric 40, Archmage 10
(this is strictly made up because I
dont have D&Dg's.......

At best DR18; HD 20/Wizard 20/Cleric 20.

Unless they are planning to draw upon the FRCS Epic Rules to accomodate these Gods?

Crothian · Apr 17, 2002

Virgil Sagecaster said:
Could you in more detail about this........ .

Sure. In my world over 1500 years ago the world was dividided in half by the mortals. There was a huge war between the Shadow Creatures* and everything else. So, the greatest wizards fothe time (think dozens of epic level guys) devised a plan. They would biuld a line of great Pyramids called the Sentinals. They go all the way around the world in a big circle (some say they also go through the world) and are impossible to get through Greatest Elementals (100HD+) where summoned and bound to these spots to prevent anything from gettiing through. However, for this to work, they needed to get most of the shadow creatures on the same side of the planet (basically, the side they had mostly conquored and destroyed).

There is a race of Elves called the Avelar. THink grey elves from 2nd edition. They are natural immortal, they will never die of old age. They are the only race not natural to my world. They have the most powerful magics and best mages. Four of these people (Methos, Silas, Cronus, and Caspian; Bonus points to anyone who catches that reference) volunttered to lead a strike force against the biggest Shadow city. Knoweldge of this was leaked and the Shadow people thought that the strike force was one last final attempt to win this. So, if the Shadow forces could destroy the strike force,m they'd win the war. They brought back most of their people to do this. The strike force was anhilated, but they bought the time for the others to construct the sentinals.

Of the strike force the four leading it survived. They were trapped in the evil lands with no way to escape. THhey did what little they could to continue the battle, but mostly they just survived. Ohem Cronus was a straight Fighter, Methos a Fioghter/Wizard, Silas A Fighter/Rogue, and Caspian a Cleric/Fighter. Caspian had to cut his ling with his god for the whole time over there because the Shadow creatures could detect the link and follow it back to him.

Well, the shadow creature eventually did find a way to break though the sentinals. However, that army was destroyed in an very epic battle (I'm happy to say that the whole thing was completely my fault as a player. The Shadow Creatures breaking through, that is. This would not have happen if not for my character

). One of the Shadow Creatures, switched sides. THis is the only time in the history of the world that has happend. She informed people of the 4 Avelar still alive.

Fast forward another 50 years. The Sentinals are back up. Flynderonn, an Avelar is determined to find the lands where his people are from. He adventures through the planes and eventually find it. While searching for it, though he also finds a secret way into the Shadow people's half of the world. The good people invade and a major war happens.

Methos, Caspian, Silas, and Cronus eventually get to go back home after over 1500 years. Caspian went into a temple to pray to his god for the first time since going to the Shadow place. He has not stopped prayeing yet (that was centuries ago in the current timeline). Methos was able to go back to the original home of the Avelar (he was the last one born there) and he found his mother (she was the one who stayed, there is always one wo sytays.) Silas went on a drinking binge that becaome the envy of the dwarfes, and Cronus walked the Earth. He is the best mortal swordsman out there. He was challenged once, and the guy fell in half before anyone knew what was happening.

We've had four long campaigns in this world, so the history is rather full. I'm currently preping for the fifth campaign. You might notice some threads in House Rules and in varies places in Bits and Pices about all of this and so much more.

*Shadow creatures: My world has 13 gods. 12 are greater gods that have many different aspects. Some of the aspects are whorsped as good, others are worhsiped as evil. But the 12 gods themsleves are really neither. THe Thirteenth god, the Shadow King, is pure evil. The other 12 created races and gave them abilities, the most important being free will. The Shadowking gave his races termendious power, but no Free Will. That was why when the Shadow Elf turned sides, it was the foirst time that had ever happened.

THat is a short summary. Hope it answered everything with out raising too many more questions. I'm happy to answer any of them though.

reiella · Apr 18, 2002

As for why there is no cross-referencing made for D&D past the core products (with the exception of the FRCS for FR products and Monsters of Faerun), it's internal policy simply.

They have an actual policy to keep from creating interdependant rule sets. This is actually being violated slightly already with the ELH FR NPC appendix and the inclusion of Psionic consideration.

Crothian · Apr 18, 2002

reiella said:
As for why there is no cross-referencing made for D&D past the core products (with the exception of the FRCS for FR products and Monsters of Faerun), it's internal policy simply.

They have an actual policy to keep from creating interdependant rule sets. This is actually being violated slightly already with the ELH FR NPC appendix and the inclusion of Psionic consideration.

For the most part I think they've done a fine job. Hoever, I think there are products that they should have use previous book.ss D&Dg would be one of these products. Many of the dieties would be better defined with some of those prestige classes in the many books.

I'd really like to see a few books a year that build of off previous books. I think people would like to use their library of gaming materials more.