How do you determine encounter distance/surprise in your game?

dreaded_beast

First Post
I'm a bit confused as to how to determine encounter distance and surprise. Based on my understanding of the 3.5 DMG and PHB, it's done on a case by case basis. The 3.0 DMG had rules, but they seemed a bit complex and confusing, such as determining the color of your clothes, weather, etc.

Does anyone have any simpler rules or can they break down the rules for me in 3.5?

Right now, I just determine where I want the encounter to start, and for surprise, I have my PCs roll either Spot or Listen depending on the situation.

I get confused sometimes as to when to use Spot or Listen, if one should be done before the other, especially in outdoor encounters.

Any suggestions are much appreciated.
 

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Jack Simth

First Post
Personally?
It's situational.
If the plot requires it, the PC's ARE surprised. If the plot requires it, the (N)BEMs ((Non)Bug-Eyed Monsters) are surprised. If the plot doesn't care, see below:

Just after opening a door in a dungeon:
You are suddenly exposed to the (N)BEMs on the other side; If the PC's have been successful on their Move Silently checks (Opposed Roll: Monsters' Listen) then the monsters are surprised; if the PC's have not been successful on their MSC's, then standard Init; if the PC's have been exceptionally loud (e.g., bashing down the door), then the (N)BEMs get to be the ones making Move Silently checks to gain surprise.

Against stalking opponents:
The (N)BEMs have been watching you for a while, and choose their time. PC's get Listen and Spot checks vs. (N)BEMs Move Silently and Hide rolls. PC's lose, they are surprised. PC's win, they get a Bluff roll vs. (N)BEMs Sense Motive; PC's win again, PC's can attack with surprise (convinced the (N)BEMs that the hide checks worked). PC's win Spot/Listen but fail Bluff, normal init ((N)BEMs know they have been spotted).

Against Ambushing Opponents:
The (N)BEMs have been waiting for someone to come by; opposed rolls (PC Spot Vs (N)BEMs Hide (no listen - (N)BEMs aren't doing anything that would give a listen roll, usually)). PC's win spot, bluff check, as above, to turn the ambush around. PC's lose Spot, they are surprised.

Against "normal" random opponents:
Sight Lines (e.g., a bend in the road) or a conditions-based sight distances. Unopposed spot to see the oncomers, DC dependant primarily on distance (and DM fiat). If the PC's choose to attack before the (N)BEMs spot the PC's, then (N)BEMs surprised; if the (N)BEMs choose to attack before the PC's spot the (N)BEMs, then PC's are surprised. If (N)BEMs spot PC's but don't choose to attack, then normal init if PC's decide to fight once thier spot rolls are made. If PC's spot (N)BEMs but don't choose to attack, then normal init if (N)BEMs decide to fight once thier spot rolls are made.

PC's trying to be stealthy/getting burst in upon: Reverse (N)BEMs and PC's in one of the above.
 

Stalker0

Legend
If you still have your 3.0 book I would go with that table. It was such a nice clean way of doing it. Sure there were plenty of times when I just said, either your surprised or not. But sometimes it was important to know the distance, and for ambushes and stuff it was important.
 

pvandyck

First Post
I try to use the rules and not make it situational, because without that, players would have less of a reason to invest in skills that allow them to be less surprised, or invest in skills that allow them to be sneaky.

One of the long-standing problems that my group would have is "they can't be sneaky". So no-one ever tried. No covert ops roleplaying, no clandestine activites, just a bunch of powerful guys knocking each door over and trumping loudly along on the way to the target.

So, I came up with rules to give my players a way to measure their sneakyness so they can decide when to try to be sneaky and when not to.

What I do is simply require that everyone involved in general sneakyness be taking 10 all the time. I didn't want people who were sneaking up to the fortress to "roll a one" and suddenly stand out like a sore thumb. I also didn't want relaxed guards, just on watch to suddenly roll a 20 and spot even the best hider.

So I created a spreadsheet, set it up with areas for the best spot, best listen, worst hide and worst move silenty for each group, bad guys and good guys. Then, it has options for whether each side is 1/2 moving, regular moving, or in "ambush" mode.

I've used this to help determine encounter distance. (using 10 feet for every 1 difference between the spotter/listener and the hider/move slientlyer) For example, the party was moving through a dangerous badlands, the Blood Steppes in the Scarred Lands, with a great desire not to fight things in the monster-infested area, but they didn't really have a time crunch, so I set them up to be moving carefully (1/2 movement) and trying to avoid encounters (taking 10 on move silently and hide checks). In addition, they using good scouting tactics, and had the best overall hider, move silenter, and spotter be ahead of the group. With all this, and assuming everyone is taking 10, I could use the spreadsheet to come up with encounter distance. On several occasions, the party spotted or hear the bad guy before the bad guy saw them. The party then had the option of stopping and hiding more, and they felt that their sneakyness was paying off.

If they wanted to judge their sneakyness before attempting it, I could outline any numbers on their side, and do what-if's: "If the bad guy has spot/listen equivalent to Bob's you'll likely be able to get to within 50 feet before they spot or hear you. If they are like Tank, you'll probably be able to walk past him in the shadows"

Other times, when the party wanted to sneak up on a group of goblins, and they understood how to maximize their hider's and move slienter's tactics to get there, They basically established a surprise round for themselves, and I was able to set the encounter distance quickly.

Now, all of this involved some time in fully understanding spot, listen, hide, and move silently. And Hide is the worst of the bunch. You need to make sure everyone understands that it is useless without concealment or cover, and by extrapolation, you can assume that without cover or concealment of some kind, spotting someone 200 feet away is NOT DC0 +1 per 10 feet = DC20. If the guys being snuck up on have made sure to have a clear view out to 60 feet, you're not getting any closer than that. If they are a bunch of dumb goblins keeping watch in rocky terrian, you may be able to get within 30 feet before they notice.

I'd attach the spreadsheet, but there doesn't appear to be options for that.....

Lemme know if someone wants it emailed.

pvandyck
 



dcollins

Explorer
Somewhat similar to the previous poster, I do let Hiders all Take 10 (that's the most advantageous thing for them to do, by cutting down variation on the low end), and have Spotters use the "cooperation" skill rule (only highest Spotter rolls, +2 for each person helping). If everyone on both sides rolls for Hide & Spot, there's statistically almost no way to successfully hide with groups as large as 4v4.
 


Thanee

First Post
dreaded_beast said:
Right now, I just determine where I want the encounter to start, and for surprise, I have my PCs roll either Spot or Listen depending on the situation.

That's pretty much what I do, though I do not arbitrarily decide when an encounter should start, but base it on the situation at what point it's reasonable that a confrontation will begin. But other than that, I just see what everyone notices (the NPCs also do not always notice the PCs automatically, of course), make the appropriate dice rolls and then start off with a surprise round, if necessary, or just let everyone roll for initiative normally.

Bye
Thanee
 


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