Where are all the fantasy movies?

Captain Tagon said:

That's probably all from me as the biggest and most famous S&S is Conan and I really don't like Conan at all so there is something of a bias there when I talk about S&S.

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Conan the movie, or Conan at all? I don't think the movie is any good at all. But I like most of the REH stories to a greater or lesser degree.

Joshua Dyal said:

Conan the movie, or Conan at all? I don't think the movie is any good at all. But I like most of the REH stories to a greater or lesser degree.

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I've never actually seen a whole one of the movies. I just don't like the fiction. Extremely heavy handed moralism with a just too super main character. It reads like Howard's wish of what he was plain and simple.

Captain Tagon said:

Extremely heavy handed moralism . . .

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Interesting.

I never saw that in the books. I think Howard was trying to write Conan's life as somewhat enviable (in a way), something people aspire to, with the freedom, and the adventure, and answering to no one, (and the lusty women, especially as painted by Frank Frazetta . . . ahem), but I also think he was just trying to write some fun adventure.

Can you talk a little about what you see as the heavy-handed moralism, and examples of good fantasy (of the Sword and Sorcery model) that doesn't have that element?

As an aside, I also recommend the Larry Niven Sword and Sorcery stories like "What Good is a Glass Dagger?" and The Magic Goes Away. Niven's magic and the power behind it is cool, the world (ours, essentially) is really intersting, and he does a great job of creating memorable characters, from warlocks (The Warlock, really) to werewolves to sword-wielders and giants.

For pure over-the-top bulging muscles and sinister sorcery Sword and Sorcery, try James Silke's Death Dealer series, based on Frazetta's legendary paintings of the awesome axe-wielder. So bad it's good. Very much fun. Huge battles, dark magic, sultry sex, hostile jungles, invading hordes, prehistoric monsters, heavy drinking, gruff barbarians. Great fun.

Warrior Poet

The problem is I haven't really read much like Swords and Sorcery fantasy outside of Conan and Soloman Kane. And that which I have, some of the DnD fiction, has the same problem. Maybe moralism isn't quite the right term. Just a lot of the little turns of phrase that Howard uses telling the tale from Conan's point of view are a bit, well disturbing. His near epic love of violence as the means to get whatever he wants and the constant bashing of anything resembling structured society are a bit much.

Looking back on it, it might not be so much Howard's intent. However, simply the character of Conan is someone I don't like because of these traits. And as most of the internal parts of the stories takes place in his head, it makes, what is for me, quite and unpleasant read.

Captain Tagon said:

The problem is I haven't really read much like Swords and Sorcery fantasy outside of Conan and Soloman Kane. And that which I have, some of the DnD fiction, has the same problem. Maybe moralism isn't quite the right term. Just a lot of the little turns of phrase that Howard uses telling the tale from Conan's point of view are a bit, well disturbing. His near epic love of violence as the means to get whatever he wants and the constant bashing of anything resembling structured society are a bit much.

Looking back on it, it might not be so much Howard's intent. However, simply the character of Conan is someone I don't like because of these traits. And as most of the internal parts of the stories takes place in his head, it makes, what is for me, quite and unpleasant read.

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Actually, that was a strange philosophical belief of Howard's himself. You really should try some Fritz Leiber, though -- although I really like Conan, I think most of the Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories are better written.

Captain Tagon said:

Just a lot of the little turns of phrase that Howard uses telling the tale from Conan's point of view are a bit, well disturbing. His near epic love of violence as the means to get whatever he wants and the constant bashing of anything resembling structured society are a bit much.

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Fair enough. Conan is definitely an anti-establishment character, and I think Howard distinctly wrote him to be a kind of celebration, not of anarchy, necessarily, but of the kind of freedom to choose one's own destiny outside the constraints of rules and rulers. Sort of an early Marlboro Man, or free-range cowboy, or pioneer.

Actually, in many ways, I think that's very much what Sword & Sorcery literature is about. You might take a look at the Niven that I mentioned. He's got some different takes on things, and in particular, the character of Orolandes in The Magic Goes Away is a character with a conscience that tries to do the right thing, and is sometimes wrong in trying to do the right thing (I'm not explaining this very well).

Though I should make the point that I don't think Conan revels in doing the wrong thing. I think he definitely has a conscience. Toward the end of the "The People of the Black Circle" (for example) he jumps into a massive fight to side with the Afghuli tribesmen that are headed for slaughter, knowing the odds are against them, and they'll probably all die, but Conan knows where his loyalties lie, and he believes in supporting his men. So he joins them, despite the apparent doom upon them. Of course, he's also been a thief, and a kidnapper, and he does solve many of his problems with his knife. I think that is why he's a great character, in many ways (and why I was disappointed in his portrayal in the movie), because there's a lot of complexity to him and the circumstances he's in. He's described by Howard as a man of "great joy, and great melancholy" or something similar (maybe Conan was bi-polar) and I think that's what Howard tries to celebrate in those stories.

There's a movie (and a pretty good one) that's a fictional account of Howard in Texas in the 30s, called The Whole Wide World. It stars Renee Zellwiger (or however her name is spelled) and it's not a bad film. It deals alot with Howard's personality and what he was trying to write about. You might check it out. It's by no means totally authentic, nor does it rest heavily on historical accuracy for some things, I'm sure, but I think there are several moments where Howard's "inner workings," so to speak, are revealed when it comes to writing.

What are some of the books you think arey excellent examples of what you'd like to see transferred to the screen?

Warrior Poet

Joshua Dyal said:

Actually, that was a strange philosophical belief of Howard's himself. You really should try some Fritz Leiber, though -- although I really like Conan, I think most of the Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories are better written.

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Good deal. I'll do that once I get around to reading all the unread books I have now and rereading the ones I remember as being really good.

Most of it is a personal preferance thing. I'm not very big on Howard's writing itself which in turn makes what I dislike about the character and the philosophy behind him that much more apparent.

Joshua Dyal said:

You really should try some Fritz Leiber, though -- although I really like Conan, I think most of the Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories are better written.

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I'll second Joshua Dyal's recommendation. Leiber is excellent, not only from a storytelling standpoint, but also as a wordsmith. His stories are fascinating (and his characters are definitely torn between many different allegiances and motivations) and the world of Lankhmar is one that really feels magical, not in a D&D sense where it's constant and common, but in a sort of wondrous, mysterious way. He wrote two of the coolest, strangest wizards I've ever read in books, and Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser are rich, awesome characters.

Warrior Poet

Warrior Poet said:

What are some of the books you think arey excellent examples of what you'd like to see transferred to the screen?

Warrior Poet

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Hmm. That's a tough one. Especially right now as I'm kind of burned out on fantasy in general. I enjoyed the DragonLance Chronicles series and unlike many enjoyed a lot of the other DragonLance books as well. Those to me are fun, non-serious fantasy romps that could make fun little fantasy/action films without much serious philosophical thought behind them. I've liked the Wheel of Time stuff so far but it is something I really wouldn't want to see on the big screen. Maybe as a TV series like Babylon 5 or something. I'm really looking forward to the Narnia films. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I thought that some of Terry Brooks' work could make good and entertaining cinema. Now that I think about it his "Magic King for Sale" series could be extremely entertaining if done well on film. I also really enjoyed the new fantasy trilogy by Michael Stackpole, don't remember any of the titles off hand but it dealt with super power dragons being in hiding and a giant war between an evil ice queen and a confederation of southern kingdoms.

Captain Tagon said:

Hmm. That's a tough one. Especially right now as I'm kind of burned out on fantasy in general.

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I'm not familiar with many of those you mentioned (I read Terry Brooks, but stopped after Wishsong of Shannara, and I read the first couple of Dragonlance books). I understand the Wheel of Time covers a ton of books. Are the suggestions you mentioned the kind that would be accessible to those who haven't read them? I thought the LoTR movies and Hellboy did a good job of making movies that the fans would appreciate and that many people who hadn't read the books would also enjoy.

Of course, I guess that depends on the script and director, in many ways, and not so much the story, really.

Warrior Poet