Oh no! Fireball in a 10ft. hallway!

tennyson · Jul 22, 2005

Hi Everyone,

If a fireball is cast in a hallway that is smaller than the spell's radius, do the flames shoot down the hallway, or does the radius stay the same, with the walls taking damage?

That also brought our group to another question: how is the magical fire of a fireball spell different from normal fire? Does it consume air as fuel, creating gusts of wind? How is it possible for a rogue to evade the middle of a large explosion with a successful reflex save?

Our group is divided not only on whether the properties of magical and real fire are different, but also on what those specific properties are. Thanks in advance!

Infiniti2000 · Jul 22, 2005

The radius stays the same. Unlike in previous editions (1e?), spells are not volumetric. I.e. they do not expand to fill a specific volume, they merely cover the area defined in the spell description. It also does not create gusts of wind.

Finally, how you describe that a rogue takes no damage is purely up to your imagination.

Henry · Jul 22, 2005

tennyson said:
Hi Everyone,

If a fireball is cast in a hallway that is smaller than the spell's radius, do the flames shoot down the hallway, or does the radius stay the same, with the walls taking damage?

That also brought our group to another question: how is the magical fire of a fireball spell different from normal fire? Does it consume air as fuel, creating gusts of wind? How is it possible for a rogue to evade the middle of a large explosion with a successful reflex save?

Our group is divided not only on whether the properties of magical and real fire are different, but also on what those specific properties are. Thanks in advance!

In previous editions, it used to have a cubic volume of 33,000 feet -- no more, no less; it expanded to fill that volume. In 3E, if something like a door or wall cuts it down, it doesn't expand.

There are no rules guidelines for consumption of air, wind effects, backdraft, etc. so it is really up to the DM to handle this.

It could be fire-like in its effects, or it could be a pocket of elemental fire from the plane of fire, and follow very different physical rules.

We know it's magical fire, so the DM does have free reign to break physics in truth.

As for Rogues and Evasion, it's a question that's raged here before. The PHB does say that if you have no room to move, evasion doesn't work.

"As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to evade. A bound character or one squeezing through an area cannot use evasion."

How do Evading characters do it? It can be explained in several ways:
--They can "Duck and Cover" behind other PCs, using them to take the brunt of the blast.
--A fireball's volume is not "100% flame" - there are swirls and waves in the pattern of flames that a nimble PC can exploit.

tennyson · Jul 22, 2005

In that case, would the walls that are encompassed by the spell's radius take damage?

HellHound · Jul 22, 2005

Having been caught in at least one explosion and several blasts of flame over the years as a steelworker, I would expect that a fireball is much like these, in that the flames do not actually fill the entirety of every 5x5x5 square that they blast through. Lucky placement, or just turning my back at the right moment ahs managed to keep me from getting more than a bit hot when other people have lost their beards and eyebrows. Taking this to the extreme, a rogue would most likely also be in the right spot at the right time to avoid the serious repercussions of such a hot blast of flame.

As for the expanding radius of the fireball, Infinity has it right, fireballs do not expand to fill a specific volume.

Darklone · Jul 22, 2005

Yes the walls take damage, due to their thickness it's usually not that important...

Being able to move does not include moving out of the spells area... 10ft is a large area to hop around.

HellHound · Jul 22, 2005

tennyson said:
In that case, would the walls that are encompassed by the spell's radius take damage?

Absolutely. Anything in the area takes the damage, in my games at least. I've never bothered to check if there is a specific ruling on this, however.

Ranes · Jul 22, 2005

The spell description describes an 'explosion' as being created but that it creates 'almost no pressure', so its behaviour is clearly not the same as a conventional (ie non-magical) fireball. Nevertheless, I would suggest that the walls of the ten-foot corridor would take damage as unattended abjects, as described by the spell entry.

As for how somebody evades full damage with a Reflex save, well, I'd suggest that any creature with a base size of 10' or less doesn't occupy the whole 10'x10' area (or volume, if we're assuming a 10' ceiling as well) and has some room to manoeuvre. I'd also suggest, as others have done on previous occasions that this issue has been raised, that the fireball is a swirling mass of flame that contains some empty space. A lucky, Reflex-saving creature caught in the effect could then presumably occupy some of this empty space, thereby avoiding the full effect of the spell.

It's a stretch but this is D&D. What isn't? Frankly I prefer the unlikeliness of this fireball to working out the volumetric effects of the spell in previous editions.

Edit: a shorter response would have made me look a lot less repetitive.

italianranma · Jul 22, 2005

I can see the issue from both sides of the story, but first I'll just tell you to play the rules as written. Then I'll discuss the flaws and merits of both, and again say why you should stick to the rules as written.

As written: Yeah, the fireball keeps it's normal radius and if you want to you can deal damage to the walls (except they're stone, so at best they take 1/2 damage from the energy blast and you still need to get through their hardness). The rogue or barbarian in the center of the blast mysteriously makes it out ok (just luck I guess). As far as to whether the Fireball actually needs air or not...is it ever important? I thought Fireball didn't work underwater, but I didn't see that in the spell description and I'm running a little late so I can't go and check the DMG...I guess thats the only situation were it would matter: the characters probably won't travel through space, and if they're in a room with no oxygen and fighting monsters...well, they've got bigger problems.

Using Logic: I would HIGHLY advice that as a DM you do NOT adjucate based on how what you think is logical. I know that is counter intuitive. Here's the deal: not everyone thinks the same things are logical, and you may even be wrong. Here's a good example: our DM told me that I couldn't ride up the stairs on a horse, because logically horses don't go up stairs. Logically of course: you don't see a bunch of people riding horses up stairs all over the place, and if I hadn't actually had the opportunity to ride a horse GOING UP STAIRS, I'd be more inclined to believe him. Funny thing about horses...they've got a great sense of balance (we call them surefooted) and seem to have more trouble with gravel than stairs. In that case the DM should have instead called for a climb check. Nothing should ever be impossible (well, maybe somethings like rubbing two spoons together in an effort to bring someone back to life). As a DM it's not your job to tell the characters what they can't do, iyou just tell them how hard it is to do it.

One more thing about logic: If you're going to play using logic, you need to be consistant and do it all the time, which is a LOT of work. If you just used that logic (rogues have no where to 'evade' the fireball) in the middle of a fight were I was playing I might feel that you weren't being fair to me. If you've consistantly applied logic to your games then I might not feel the same.

So in closing, when at all possible play AS WRITTEN. You're going to save yourself a lot of headaches.

The_Fan · Jul 22, 2005

And yes, the walls do take damage. Odds are not much, since the most a fireball can do is 10d6 (10-60, average 35), masonry walls have hardness 8, 90 HP, and fire damage is halved to objects. At most, you are looking at 22 points of damage to the wall, enough to blast through about two inches of material. Doors, on the other hand, have 5 hardness and 10-20 hp, meaning on average you could blow through most wooden doors, with the fireball area expanding to fill the space previously blocked by the door.

Ways for a rogue (or monk, or ranger for that matter) to survive:

Duck and cover: "He bends over and tucks his head into his arms, going under the brunt of the attack"

Matrix: "Kicking from wall to wall, he flattens against the ceiling as the flames pass below."

Mysterious: "When the fire subsides, the monk is standing there unharmed, with his arms folded across his chest in a defensive manner and his eyes closed as if in contemplation."

Humerous: "When the flame subsides, the rogue is standing there looking around as if surprised by his own survival. He says, 'Err...I think you missed.'"

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Generally, I have magical fire behave according to its own rules. Magical fire is mostly heat, there's no real "spark." It can set flammable objects on fire, but for some reason unless it specifically says so it never does that on objects people are carrying. Their life-force protects their equipment as well as it does them. However, it also can exist in environments that would not normally support fire. You can cast it underwater or even in a vacuum with a proper Spellcraft check.

Now, I make a distinction between magical fire and magically created fire. Fire created by magic is generally the province of Conjuration. It burns as normal, setting flammable objects on fire if it overcomes hardness (though puttering out if it fails to do so on subsequent rounds). It also cannot exist in environments that would not normally support fire. Sometimes a well-aimed fire conjuration can even set a person's possessions ablaze, though.

The distinction is whether or not it allows SR: If it does, it's magic fire. If it doesn't, it's just magicly created.