D&D 2E Converting the old 2E bard kits?

Has anyone seen or done a conversion of the bard kits from the 2E Complete Bard's handbook?

I really like Jack-of-all-Trades type characters and the bard is the only single class option you have for that sort of thing. I realize you can get the same effect with a multi-class fighter/mage/thief but, XP penalties for too many classes aside, a 6th level F/M/T who's 2nd level in each class IS NOT equal to a 6th level straight bard, or any other straight 6th level character.

The bard could be the perfect "Professional Dungeon Delver" class if it weren't for all the damn singing! Personally, if I were in a dungeon and one of my companions burst into song everytime a monster popped out I'd beat him to death with his own freaking lute!!

As an alternative to converting the 2E kits, does anyone have any suggestions for replacement abilities for 'bardic music'? Perhaps a set of quasi-magic abilities based on high skill in a more dungeon useful skill, or group of skills?

not what you are looking for, but there is a feat in S&S called subharmonics that allows the bard music songs without the sound. As for making the kits into prestige classes, it should be really easy.

FoxWander said:

The bard could be the perfect "Professional Dungeon Delver" class if it weren't for all the damn singing! Personally, if I were in a dungeon and one of my companions burst into song everytime a monster popped out I'd beat him to death with his own freaking lute!!

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If you dont like the songs, you could have the bards have Perform (haiku) or Perform (stand up comedy) instead.

True subsonics (I think that's what you're talking about) would get rid of the music, but also true, its not what I'm looking for. Plus the feat itself seems kind of silly. Not only is it unrealistic, how do you play music that's going to affect anyone if they can't hear it? Isn't that the whole point of bardic music?

Also I DEFINITELY don't want yet another prestige class. I want a class exactly like the bard without the music. If it were a prestige class that would have to mean he started off with the music and then dropped it later on. I don't want the music period!

I mean, the idea of such a class fits in perfectly with the actual setting D&D is supposed to be in. In a fantasy world filled with dungeons to explore and where 'adventuring' is a valid career choice, wouldn't a class arise whose sole 'job' would be as a professional adventurer? Someone who can perform all the myriad tasks required on adventures or dungeon crawling reasonably well? The bard fits that role perfectly, except for the freaking music! He can fight ok, open locks and find traps, cast a few wizardly spells and do some minor healing AND he has the side benifit of not having to deal with that annoying 'spell preperation' issue. He can't do all of those things individually as well as his single classed companions class, but he CAN do all of them, Except the bard as he is now, has to whip out a guitar to do his unique tricks, and that, to me, is just stupid. I just can't picture a singing minstrel as a valid class. When I think a bard as printed I can't help picturing Sir Robin's minstrels from Monty Python and The Holy Grail, complete with the "they were forced to eat Robin's minstrels, and there was much rejoicing. Yay,yay!"

And another thing, where the heck does the wandering minstrel archtype combine with the casual fighter/thief/spell-slinger to make what the D&D bard is? I know it has its roots in celtic history and there are countless fantasy books filled with bardic-mage type characters (which frankly, annoy me also), but whoever thought this would be a valid career path for somone who wants to explore trap-filled dungeons and slay evil dragons?

Anyway, enough of my ranting. Suffice it to say I don't like musicians in my D&D party. But a Jack-of-all-trades with a few tricks no one else has- read: Something to fill the void in bard after you remove 'bardic music'. I'd be all for something like that. So please help me come up with something to get rid of the fiddle playing fops!

Okay, your looking for a adventureer type core class. The name can be thought of later. Names are a finishing point for me, not a starter point. The HD could be d6 or even d8 if you want a more physical type class. Skill points I'd go with 6 a level, allowing much verstility with the skills but still keeping the rogue as king. Class skills: Appraise, Balance, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intuit Direction, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Proffesion, Search, Spot, and Swim. Saving throws are tricky. As an adventureer I'd think fort and reflex would be good and will bad, but it could be easily argued any two of the three as good. Now, the special abilities are the hard part. There are lots of aspects to adventuring. Searching and disarming traps, getting into hard to get into places, knowing what creatures inhabit the area based off of refuse or other clues, greater natural endurance to explore, superior vision and hearing, greater ability to deal with natural disasters, the list can go on and on. So, I ask: What specifics do you imagine this class having? Hope this little write up is some help.

A magical rogue??

I agree with you Fox and Crothian, if it wasn't for the music I'd love the bard. In fact I'd probably play them exclusively. I love the idea of a self-reliant/jack-of-all-trades type of adventurer. I think I'd take the current bard, make it a PrC, and replace it with what would basically be a rogue w/ magic but w/o or w/ lesser sneak attack to compensate.

Vagabond - other names are welcome

HD: d6
BAB: medium
Skills: 6+int
Skills: like bard's I guess
Saves F/R/W: Poor/Good/Good <- medium/medium/medium would be perfect if such a thing existed
Armor Pro: Light, Medium
Weapon Pro: Simple plus one martial
Spells: As the Bard, spont casting too
L1 Trivial Knowledge, Traps, Aura of Luck +1, Vagabond Casting, Supreme Confidence
L2 Lucky Strike 1/day, Evasion
L3 Uncanny Dodge (don't lose dex)
L4 Personal Magnetism
L5 Aura of Luck +2
L6 Uncanny Dodge (can't be flanked)
L7
L8 Lucky Strike 2/day,
L9
L10 Aura of Luck +3, Vagabond Ability
L11
L12
L13 Vagabond Ability
L14 Lucky Strike 3/day
L15 Aura of Luck +4
L16 Vagabond Ability
L17
L18
L19 Vagabond Ability
L20 Aura of Luck +5, Lucky Strike 4/day

Trivial Knowledge: Add 1/2 Vagabond level to any knowledge skill check
Traps: Has same trap undoing ability as a rogue (in fact it would make more sense for this class with its magical ability, and not the rogue to be able to undo magical traps)
Aura of Luck: All those within 30 ft can add +X to all saving throws
Vagabond Casting: Cast without spell failure in light armour (maybe excluding mithralized armours they do exploit benefits like this).
Supreme Confidence: The name sucks, but Cha bonus to AC.
Lucky Strike: Like a Pal's smite: Cha bonus to ATK, vagabond level to damage.
Personal Magnetism: +3 to reputation, NPC reaction to the vagabond is automatically one level higher than it would otherwise be.
Vagabond Abilities: Skill Mastery, Opportunist, Improved Evasion, Defensive Roll, Slippery Mind or a feat(Basically the Rogue Abilities minus crippling strike)

NB: I'm just making a suggestion here, I haven't thought too much about this, please suggest new class abilities or say some of mine are unbalanced. This might be too close to the rogue... I don't know just throwing something out here.

honestly, this type of class is the exact problem I had with 2e bards. They were the ultimate "bit of everything" and in some way or another, made all other classes (except cleric in 2e, although even that would be covered in 3e) obsolete. The bard in 3e has a distict flavor and style that removing the performative aspect would IMO destroy and you would have a fighter/rogue/sorcerer/cleric.

The whole idea of D&D IMO is the characters joining forces to solve problems and fight evil, not one person being able to do it all.

Just my .02

Goody more feedback

Crothian- An adventurer core class is exactly what I'm looking for, in fact that would be the name I would use, "Adventurer". I'd go with d6 HD and 6 SP/level, giving him a d8 HD would make him too good I think. The skills you list would work. For saves I think Fort and Reflex would be the best as his main focus would be surviving poisons and dodging traps, good Will saves come from magic use and for him that's more of a sideline than a career. Magic use would be exactly as a Bard. For special abilities- the bard's knowledge ability, a monster lore ability, the rogue's uncanny dodge esp. vs traps, superior vision and senses (maybe as increasing bonuses to listen, spot and search rolls) and maybe some sort of uncanny luck thing- like the granted power of the luck domain.

Archimago- Your Vagabond is kinda what I'm going for though some of the abilities seem a little too good. Specifically...

Traps- yeah I forgot to add that one above, he'd definitely have to be able to deal with magic traps, and like you say, it especially makes sense with his apell use.
Aura of Luck- This seems way too good. Every party would want to have a Vagabond around, heck I'd keep a halfling vagabond in my backpack! But you've got a luck idea, like I was thinking above
Vagabond casting- this makes alot of sense for the class, but I think people will say its too powerful. I don't know, what does anyone else think?
Supreme Confidence- I like that one I may have to add it to my idea.
Personal Magnetism- Not too powerful, Im just not sure I can see the reasoning behind it.
Vagabond Abilities- I like these too, a higher level choose your own benefit thing would give you variety.

So maybe with some changes it could work. Since I'm thinking of this as another "core class", and not a prestige class, its important that its perfectly balanced with the other core classes. You can't make it so good everyone will want to play one. Which leads into my next point...

Dreamchaser- I agree with you about the 2E bard kits stepping on the toes of the other classes and that the 3E bard has a distinct flavor. In fact I think its the best bard D&D's ever had. For what it is I think the bardic music abilities work great. I just despise the image of a bard in a dungeon strumming a lute while everyone else is fighting or the thief is disarming a trap. It just bugs me. I also don't think this class would interfere with the party mechanic of D&D. Sure this class can do a little bit of everything but he can't do it all well! And that's the balancing factor. When the whole party is 12th level the fighter is going to be a whirling death machine, the cleric will be able to raise the dead, the rogue dealing death from the shadows and the wizard will be able to disintegrate whoever annoys him. The "Adventurer" will hold his own in those fields and good to have around in case one of the other guys gets fragged, but mainly he'll be the luckiest scout the party's ever seen!

Plus the main reason I want a class like this is that in the D&D world, it just makes sense. Like I said above, if "adventuring" is a viable career in the D&D world doesn't it make sense that a class would exist who can do ALL the standard adventuring stuff at least fairly well, instead of specializing in just one aspect of it?

Anyway, please more ideas, more balancing suggestions! I really want to make a viable, balanced core "Adventurer" class!

FoxWander - let me explain Personal Magnetism, and really the basis of my "vagabond" or "adventurer" class idea. Did you ever play those console RPGs, like Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior. Well, I noticed that in the ones that featured NPCs that join the party (rather than all player created) the one player created character was usually the guy would could fight, but not as the party's tank, had some type of arcane power, but not like the party's wizard. This guy was the quintessential 'hero' who roused up a force to challenge evil and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, to me it would make sense that such these character, if they were real people would like have a strength of personality to them to make people heed their words and follow them when they otherwise wouldn't. The luck bonuses I gave the vagabond was to represent how, while not being the best at anything, having one of these leaders made everyone else better, and the personal magnetism ability was to represent their force of character. Does this concept sound something akin to what you're going for?
By the way, I'm not married to those special abilities I wrote, I was just trying to come up with a bunch of different ones along similar themes, and the Aura of Luck as written does seem a bit on the strong side, but I like the concept nonetheless (kind of like a bard song w/o singing, no?)

Bard=cool

I personally don't see what everyone's problem with the bard is. Instead of thinking of him whipping out his lute in the middle of a fight, think of it as singing a batte song to rouse up the morale of his comrades. Or maybe he is in the background, playing his music to keep up the morale, but he can pick up his sword and fight if he needs to. I don't see why the bard rubs everyone the wrong the way. I personally love bards.

However, enough of that semi-rant. Here's a good name for this new class: the Wanderer. Think about it, it makes sense; he wanders about the land alone, and in the course of said wnaderings, he acquires all these different skills.