D&D 5E High DPR Paladin-Rogue-Bard Will it work?

[EzekielRaiden]

Sadly Sage advice tweets are no longer official and I don't have a clue if that ruling actually made it into the sage advice document.

The tweets are from December 2014. That predates the "tweets are no longer official" policy.

I never said to be both at once.

Well sure, but the biggest benefit of Warlock is pretty clearly the "use Cha for attack and damage." The rest is just icing on the cake.

 

[FrogReaver]

The tweets are from December 2014. That predates the "tweets are no longer official" policy.

Exactly. That policy is retroactive. It makes those tweets non-official.

Well sure, but the biggest benefit of Warlock is pretty clearly the "use Cha for attack and damage." The rest is just icing on the cake.

For a single class warlock that's focusing on melee - no, that's fairly minor. The really big thing is the medium armor and shields.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Exactly. That policy is retroactive. It makes those tweets non-official.

Ah. Didn't know that. Well then--there is no official policy. According to the advice from Jeremy Crawford, which is the only even vaguely official thing, such spell slots should work.

For a single class warlock that's focusing on melee - no, that's fairly minor. The really big thing is the medium armor and shields.

Okay but...we're explicitly talking about multiclass stuff here. I was speaking in the context of the thread at large, which is explicitly about multiclassing.

 

[FrogReaver]

Ah. Didn't know that. Well then--there is no official policy. According to the advice from Jeremy Crawford, which is the only even vaguely official thing, such spell slots should work.

Okay but...we're explicitly talking about multiclass stuff here. I was speaking in the context of the thread at large, which is explicitly about multiclassing.

My post that you replied to explicitly wasn't.

in general melee locks work great with shadow blade and spirit shroud. I’d actually recommend a straight one of them over these multiclass abominations. Maybe with a small number of rogue levels if cunning action seemed really important.

Being able to do 3d8+5 while having 2 attacks at level 5 and often having advantage is really good. Make that 4d8+5 at level 9.

Be a genie warlock for even more damage.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The tweets are from December 2014. That predates the "tweets are no longer official" policy.

And he did a different ruling about warlock slots and smites later.

Well sure, but the biggest benefit of Warlock is pretty clearly the "use Cha for attack and damage." The rest is just icing on the cake.

And 16 dex is plenty if you always have advantage on attacks with elven accuracy. So no real need for 20 attack stat.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The thing is you don't get enough slots with AT to really be an effective smiter. You pay the multiclass caster penalty on this. A 7th level Paladin is a 4th level caster and that is the baseline to smite. A 7th level AT is a 3rd level caster which is close but a 5th level Rogue/2nd level Paladin is only a 2nd level caster, 2 full levels behind.

I really like this build.

The only thing I'd might change is using the good old devotion oath. It has +charisma to attack rolls if you need it. That +elven accuracy will be close to an automatic hit.
But with 2014 rules this costs an action to activate and might not be worth it most of the time.

 

[jgsugden]

If you like the idea, then it is good. D&D in 5E is balanced enough that you kind of need to try to go wrong. The idea of the stealth paladin is a fun one - with the Avenger from 4E as a good example.

From an efficiency standpoint, your biggest 'hole' in your game is the reliance on a single attack per round. Everyone gets an unlucky streak, and if you miss on three attacks in a row, that can be three rounds in a row that you effectively do nothing other than absorb damage. You're also capping out at +2d6 sneak attack damage which makes the sneak attack damage minimally meaningful. You can get an average of +7 damage from a lot of sources - is the rogue really that essential to the build?

If you go with your build, I'd consider going with 2 separate one handed dex weapons at low level to increase the chances of getting a hit to deliver that sneak attack. You don't need to invest feats or anything ... just use the two weapons like most rogues do.

Personally, I would drop the rogue and go pure dex based vengeance paladin to level 6. I'd give them a Criminal or Hermit background to get the skills for a dex build.

Level 1: 2d6+3 (2 light dex weapons) = 10
Level 2: 2d6+2d4+3 (add divine favor) = 15
Level 3 and 4: 4d6+3 (divine favor become hunter's mark) = 17
Level 5: 6d6+6 (multiattack) = 27
Level 6: Can you pass on those charisma bonus to all saves, really?

From here you could add the 1 level of Hexblade for Charisma based attacks, and then either go with a bard or sorcerer build on top.

Note that this build also 'strengthens' if you happen to find a strength enhancing item more than your original build due to the multiattack.

 

[Greenstone.Walker]

Psychic Blades is limited use, but not very limited. It is 5 uses per short rest with a 20 Charisma, but you are only attacking nominally 8 times per short rest and you are not hitting with all of those attacks, so most of the time you hit an enemy you can use it.

That's an interesting assumption. 8 rounds of combat total between short rests? I've seen games with 8 combats between rests.
That's also assuming you never give any party members bardic inspiration. How do they feel about that?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If you like the idea, then it is good. D&D in 5E is balanced enough that you kind of need to try to go wrong. The idea of the stealth paladin is a fun one - with the Avenger from 4E as a good example.

From an efficiency standpoint, your biggest 'hole' in your game is the reliance on a single attack per round. Everyone gets an unlucky streak, and if you miss on three attacks in a row, that can be three rounds in a row that you effectively do nothing other than absorb damage. You're also capping out at +2d6 sneak attack damage which makes the sneak attack damage minimally meaningful. You can get an average of +7 damage from a lot of sources - is the rogue really that essential to the build?

If you go with your build, I'd consider going with 2 separate one handed dex weapons at low level to increase the chances of getting a hit to deliver that sneak attack. You don't need to invest feats or anything ... just use the two weapons like most rogues do.

Personally, I would drop the rogue and go pure dex based vengeance paladin to level 6. I'd give them a Criminal or Hermit background to get the skills for a dex build.

Level 1: 2d6+3 (2 light dex weapons) = 10
Level 2: 2d6+2d4+3 (add divine favor) = 15
Level 3 and 4: 4d6+3 (divine favor become hunter's mark) = 17
Level 5: 6d6+6 (multiattack) = 27
Level 6: Can you pass on those charisma bonus to all saves, really?

From here you could add the 1 level of Hexblade for Charisma based attacks, and then either go with a bard or sorcerer build on top.

Note that this build also 'strengthens' if you happen to find a strength enhancing item more than your original build due to the multiattack.

The hexblade should have never existed. Any character idea gets hit with: take 1 extra level of warlock on top siggestions... neglecting, that it shoves all class abilities back 1 level. Ignoring that the actual improvement is often miniscule (always attacking with advantage and elven accuracy takes care of hitting). And last but not least, that many paladins just wont forge a pact with a weapon...
and many players don't want to play the same cookie cutter build over and over again.

 

[jgsugden]

The hexblade should have never existed. Any character idea gets hit with: take 1 extra level of warlock on top siggestions... neglecting, that it shoves all class abilities back 1 level. Ignoring that the actual improvement is often miniscule (always attacking with advantage and elven accuracy takes care of hitting). And last but not least, that many paladins just wont forge a pact with a weapon...
and many players don't want to play the same cookie cutter build over and over again.

This has all been becried many times, but:

1.) Being able to focus your attack bonus is still significant - even with often attacking with advantage and elven accuracy. The advantage is never as guaranteed as we think, and there are high AC foes where that +2 to hit matters. It is especially meaningfukl ona build that is DPR focused and relies upon 1 attack per turn. Bad luck happens.

2.) You get more than just the advantage to hit. Armor of Agathys on a build with some significant spell levels is a significant benefit. Hex can be significant in ways that a lot of players overlook, especially on a stealth build (give the guard a -5 to their passive perception).

3.) If you feel like any one level of a warlock is cookie cutter, then you might want to ask your DMs to do more with the idea of a patron.