TPK scenario

I'd like to tell a tale of a TPK scenario. [This occurred in our latest game session -- this past Friday night.]

Our party:

Human Paladin 4
Human Rogue 4
Human Bard 4
Elf Fighter 4 (archer)

We've been exploring a haunted cave system. The bard is down to 6 Wisdom from an allip attack (which we ran from). And the bard is down to 5 Con (from 14), the rogue is down to 8 Con (from 10), and the paladin is down to 11 Con (from 14) from a wraith encounter (we killed it). [All drain damage, too. So none of it will heal without some magical help.]

We have only till tomorrow night to accomplish our mission (find the mcguffin) and stop a Bad Thing from happening. So, although we are all in various stages of hurt, we decide to go a little further. We agree that we'll keep the bard in the back (to keep her and us safe -- Wis 6 = foolish). If we encounter anything too dangerous, we'll pull out and get help (like a cleric to cast restorations).

The bard and the paladin both have a magical teleport paper that when torn in half, teleport you to a specific location back in town. We took these items from defeated bad guys, and now consider them the "emergency escape hatch" (for at least two of us).

Well, we are walking down a hallway (paladin leading, then rogue, bard, archer) and come to a door. The paladin opens the door to find a bare and empty room. But then shadowy figures emerge from the walls. Four shadows attack (the paladin's Knowledge Religion identifies them).

OK, this is Bad. The paladin could only turn them with a *very good* d20 roll. The bard is the only one with a magic weapon -- a +1 whip-dagger. The bard also has a wand of burning hands (5th level) that she uses with Use Magic Device (50% chance of activating, and then a 50% miss chance on the incorporeal shadows). The paladin has a scroll of magic weapon. And the paladin, up front with the shadows, has a touch AC of 11.

So, in the first attack, the paladin is knocked down to 6 Strength (from 14). He yells for everyone to retreat and get out as he steps back from the door. The paladin wears full plate armor, and with armor, weapons and equipment, he is weighed down with over 100 pounds of gear.

The bard blasts the shadows with the wand. But no one retreats. The shadows rush out of the room and press their attack. The paladin is weakened down to 3 Strength, and collapses in the hallway, unable to support his carried weight. The bard is weakened to 10 Strength (from 14).

Though the paladin calls for everyone to get out whatever way they can, no one retreats. The rogue tries dragging the paladin (5 feet). The paladin holds out the teleport paper for the rogue to tear with him. (This is a tactic thought of earlier -- two people hold the paper and tear it together -- we didn't know if both, or just one, or neither would actually get teleported this way, but we were going to try it.) The rogue held his action to tear if the shadows pounced on him.

The shadows continue their attack. The bard continues using the wand (getting lucky with each UMD roll, but only hurting some of the shadows because of the miss chance). The paladin tells the rogue to take the scroll and use it with the archer. The paladin is going to talk the bard into using her teleport paper with him. They *must* get out of there. It is a forgone conclusion now: the shadows are going to overwhelm them very soon.

Fortunately, occassionally a shadow or two flies back to the room they came from and waits a couple rounds. We figure the room heals them. This is kind of bad (healing up the damage we've managed to do), but it is also good (it gives us a break from four attacks).

The rogue and the archer use the teleport paper, but only the rogue teleports (the DM rules for opposed straight d20 rolls, the winner teleports). So the archer grabs the bard's magic whip-dagger and goes on the offensive.

Fortunately, other than the paladin, the whole group has good touch ACs.

The paladin is still calling for everyone to retreat. He seems to be the only one who realizes this is a TPK happening. (A TPK minus the smart rogue.) The archer is gone totally over the top with wanting to kill the shadows (even with the -4 penalty for using the whip [exotic weapon]), and the bard is foolishly (6 Wis) following along. The paladin is near paralyzed on the floor under the weight of his gear. The paladin mentions that if the shadows kill one of us, we'll have another shadow pop up to attack us.

The paladin pulls out a wand of lesser restoration and heals some of his damage, and then moves up to heal some of the bard's and archer's damage as they magic-whip and magic-wand the shadows. He keeps up the call for retreat. The bard and archer can run away, but the paladin is much slower in heavy armor. The paladin is willing to let the shadows attack him to give the others a round or two for retreat.

This is a TPK just waiting to happen. The only thing drawing this out is some of the shadows constantly backing to their room to heal. So there's usually only 2 attacking at a time, instead of all 4.

Well, after a few rounds of very lucky rolls, the bard and archer manage to kill all 4 shadows. Un-be-freakin'-lievable. Impossible, even. The paladin and rogue Players knew this was going to be a TPK. The bard Player saw it that way too, but he was playing his character with a 6 Wisdom, and as long as someone was fighting, the bard was foolish enough to keep it up. The archer just didn't care, and was just running on anger.

After some judicious use of lesser restoration (15 charges off the wand), the paladin, bard, and archer finally retreated out of the dungeon and back to town, to meet up with the rogue.

This *should* have been a TPK, and the stupidity was all by the Players/PCs. The strange fact we actually ended up surviving this impossible situation doesn't mean it was anything but absolutely foolish.

I still can't believe not only was this not a TPK, but all four PCs survived the encounter.

Bullgrit

Well, *I* thought this a terribly interesting situation that could prompt discussion.

I'm still amazed by it, 3 days later.

The only bad thing I think will come of it, in our game, is that we'll be emboldened by our overcoming the odds. I think this will make people think we should just stick in a fight and we'll eventually win out.

But, maybe that is right. Afterall, foolish tenacity won through the day this time.

Should we have run? Or should we have fought on like we did? Would you have fought on or run? Would you have left a willing comrade behind?

Bullgrit

I would have been so out of there you would have thought I'd gone invisible!

On the other hand, I've seen this sort of thing happen before. Of course, I've seen it backfire a LOT more!

Bullgrit said:

After some judicious use of lesser restoration (15 charges off the wand), the paladin, bard, and archer finally retreated out of the dungeon and back to town, to meet up with the rogue.

Click to expand...

...now, correct me if I'm missing something, but wouldn't the Lesser Restoration wand have taken care of the various drains? My books are in VA, and I'm in KY right now.

Brad

Well if you really want me to comment, okay.

This *should* have been a TPK, and the stupidity was all by the Players/PCs.

Click to expand...

Nah. Let's back this up and look at the DM error here. In all the party the only magic weapon is an exotic weapon a non-melee character has proficiency with, a whip for crying out loud, no dependable damage magic, and the players are run through a gauntlet of incorporeal, ability draining undead before being dropped into an overpowering group of regenerating shadows. This has "total party slaughter" written all over it, but with 24 hours to retrieve the MacGuffin and save the world the DM does not really allow for retreat and recovery. When you do try and retreat, the DM makes a ruling to worsen the situation.

I think it's pretty clear the DM wanted all of you to die!

I disagree

I don't think it's fair to blame this on the DM, based solely on what we know.

1) the players, not the DM, chose their characters. I don't believe in blaming the DM when no on in the party plays the cleric.

2) Just because the DM sets it up where a Bad Thing will happen unless a party succeeds, doesn't mean that it's the DM's responsibility to 'let' them succeed. I think that things going south can really make a campaign interesting.

3) It sounds like the party was capable of retreating, but chose not to do so. How is this the DM's problem?

Ken

Haffrung Helleyes said:

I don't think it's fair to blame this on the DM, based solely on what we know.

1) the players, not the DM, chose their characters. I don't believe in blaming the DM when no on in the party plays the cleric.

Click to expand...

When a DM gets the group together he either informs the party that they need a cleric, or he adapts the encounters to make them bearable. Undead CRs are fairly predicated upon the assumption that clerics will be present.

2) Just because the DM sets it up where a Bad Thing will happen unless a party succeeds, doesn't mean that it's the DM's responsibility to 'let' them succeed. I think that things going south can really make a campaign interesting.

Click to expand...

This is fair enough, but it is very likely to get a party killed when trying to stop the "bad thing".

3) It sounds like the party was capable of retreating, but chose not to do so. How is this the DM's problem?

Ken

Click to expand...

True enough here, but this encounter actually should have slaughtered them without much chance of retreat. Shadows aren't that slow, and are incorporeal. It's not easy to get away from them when you have to.

Personally I think the DM was being rather over the top throwing sequential non corporeal undead against a group obviously unsuited to fighting them.

Sure, a world does not have to be suited to what the players can vanquish, but suicide missions generally aren't fun.

buzzard

I'd have teleported out BOTH characters when the sheet of paper was torn. Not strictly in-line with the rules for the spell (I believe it's Word of Recall), but it would save those two, and convinced the other two to "tear out of there too". In justifying later, you could say it was within the weight limit of the spell, or some such excuse, if anyone looked it up and questioned it.

Bullgrit said:

We've been exploring a haunted cave system. The bard is down to 6 Wisdom from an allip attack (which we ran from). And the bard is down to 5 Con (from 14), the rogue is down to 8 Con (from 10), and the paladin is down to 11 Con (from 14) from a wraith encounter (we killed it). [All drain damage, too. So none of it will heal without some magical help.]
Bullgrit

Click to expand...

This is my 1st Problem the DM has set up a situation where you are forced to continue with characters who are significantly weakened from earlier encounters. At this point the Bard's Max HP are what like 10, The Rogue has maybe hi teens, and your tank has been downgraded as well. Ability drain isn't a problem by itself but in an adventure with a time limit with no access to restoration, poor adventure design. That being said you as players choose to continue on perhaps he actually counted on you being forced to retreat.

We have only till tomorrow night to accomplish our mission (find the mcguffin) and stop a Bad Thing from happening. So, although we are all in various stages of hurt, we decide to go a little further. We agree that we'll keep the bard in the back (to keep her and us safe -- Wis 6 = foolish). If we encounter anything too dangerous, we'll pull out and get help (like a cleric to cast restorations).

Click to expand...

Probably a poor decision, if seeking healing for the Ability Drains and returning was at all posible I think you should have done that.

The bard and the paladin both have a magical teleport paper that when torn in half, teleport you to a specific location back in town. We took these items from defeated bad guys, and now consider them the "emergency escape hatch" (for at least two of us).

Click to expand...

Here's a rules problem that the DM should have been more specific about. i.e. Whether these will work like the spell or not. As per the spell, the minimum level of the spell should have allowed for more than 1 person per spell. Of course magic items do not always follow the rules of spells exactly as written but then it is usually important to figure out exactly how they work. If Identify was cast on these, it should have revealed whether they would teleport more than 1 person.

Well, we are walking down a hallway (paladin leading, then rogue, bard, archer) and come to a door. The paladin opens the door to find a bare and empty room. But then shadowy figures emerge from the walls. Four shadows attack (the paladin's Knowledge Religion identifies them).

Click to expand...

Four shadows is a EL 7 encounter which is classified as Very Difficult. Add in the situational modifier that the shadows seem to have access to healing and the partys weakened state and this pushes this into overwhelming. Which to me says you should have run quickly. Let me just say repeatedly using Incorporeal creatures when the party has 1 magic weapon and limited magic attacks is asking for trouble. Honestly I am amazed that it wasn't a TPK especially after the 1st round took the Paladin down to 6 Str. Honestly I suspect the DM fudged at this point to keep you alive but that sort of thing is virtually impossible to know especially just from your post.

The rogue and the archer use the teleport paper, but only the rogue teleports (the DM rules for opposed straight d20 rolls, the winner teleports). So the archer grabs the bard's magic whip-dagger and goes on the offensive.

Click to expand...

Here again if you did not know what would happen I as the DM would have allowed this tactic to work teleporting both people. It was somewhat inventive on the party's part, it fit the activation requirement for the magic item, and logically the tearing only works with both people holding it.

This *should* have been a TPK, and the stupidity was all by the Players/PCs. The strange fact we actually ended up surviving this impossible situation doesn't mean it was anything but absolutely foolish.

I still can't believe not only was this not a TPK, but all four PCs survived the encounter.

Click to expand...

Agreed and since you seem to get that, breath a sigh of relief, have a quick talk with the DM about encounter balance, retreats, and time limits, and thank your luck.

I think this was a tough encounter (note you had an escape route since the Shadows appeared to be heavily grounded in their lair), played very well by a bunch of players in tune with their characters. That you didn't all get killed was either lucky, or more likely judiciously fudged by your DM. Now you have a very memorable encounter, a narrow escape, and a party which has become painfully aware that fighting swarms of undead with no cleric present is a risky proposition, and will want to consider hiring/inspiring some help in the future.

I do think that pushing on in such a weakened state was your first (and only) error, unless there was absolutely no hope of restoration before the time limit was up. Other than that, you just described four heroes overvoming impossible odds in service of the greater good - your bard should start writing some heroic verses with dispatch!