High Level Enemies: Epic or Near Epic?

JoeGKushner

First Post

• May 26, 2006

• #1

When looking at some of the big bads in your campaign world, do you like them to be epic, like unto or past the gods where the player's really aren't going to be able to touch them without a lot of preperation or do you like them just on the passing side of CR 20?

Me? If there is a big bad and it's got a reason for being a big bad, it should be well outside of the characters reach and they should have to bust their behinds trying to figure out how to overcome it as opposed to just being a "high enough level" once they hit 20th.

I can see the idea that just a little higher than 20 is good because it actually gives the players a chance to impact the setting and more important, to actually be used, but for me, 20th doesn't cut it.

 

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Crothian

First Post

• May 26, 2006

• #2

Most of my big bads are over 20th, but some are actually quit weak.

 

Psion

Adventurer

• May 26, 2006

• #3

I used to use levels/CR 30+ for many important NPCs rather liberally. 3.5 changed that quite a bit, due to 2 things:

1) The 3.5 CR guidelines no longer make the CR of classed monsters ridiculously out of line with their real power
2) Classes like mystic theurge and eldritch knight make fitting mixed concepts into the allotted amount of levels easier.

I really can't see making a BBEG made for the PCs to confront an authentic CR higher than 27 or so. I think if you can cast 9th level spell, you are close enough to "epic" for my purposes. The only practical purpose the Epic level rules play for me is to make the 20th level limit a bit softer, allowing characters to go a few levels past if the wants and needs of the campaign dictate.

 

Gold Roger

First Post

• May 26, 2006

• #4

I don't like epic and preper there to be a stopping point of advancement, so level 20 is the very maximum a mortal can reach. I want them to be able to beat a really big bad (say, Demogorgon) at that level.

Mind you, I want them to bust their ass doing so, but not mechanical. A archfiend that's CR 21 is perfectly fine with me. The trick and hard thing to do should be getting him out of his domain (where he should be truly unbeatable) and after beating him making sure he can't return. That's far more exciting way for me to beat a big bad than cheesing out a way to destroy a enemy far above my APL or advancing further till he's nothing but another Monster.

The fight should be hard, but not impossible and the whole thing should be more than a fight.

 

JoeGKushner

First Post

• May 26, 2006

• #5

Interesting point.

Do you use a home brew or prepublished campaign?

One of the reasons I like my big bads "big" is that I usually run the Forgotten Realms and well, you can't swing a cat without hitting a 20th level wizard so yeah, big bad's should be tough enough that no one is going to want to mess with them.

 

Gold Roger

First Post

• May 26, 2006

• #6

Is Planescape using a homebrew material plane world as center stage a aplicable answer?

I like planescape and D&D cosmology to the point of loving it, but nonmaterial planes can't sustain a classical campaign for me, and I'm far better running homebrew most of the time. I used to run lower demographics, but that just doesn't work as easily.

I mostly try to stay to 3.5 standart demographics, if that helps.

That said, I think personal preferences should define the setting choice, not the other way around.

 

The_Gneech

Explorer

• May 26, 2006

• #7

I generally have a hard time wrapping my mind around anything past 15th-18th level play, so I'm looking at making the campaign BBEG something like 21st level so he can be a climactic end-of-campaign fight.

EDIT: I should also mention that the average populace in my setting is 3rd- to 6th-level (commoners, aristocrats, experts, etc.). The wiiiiiiild power curve in D&D messes with my head!

-The Gneech

 

Shade

Monster Junkie

• May 26, 2006

• #8

I like my archfiends, celestial paragons, etc. in the CR 25+ range.

I like the dukes, viceroys, etc. in the low to mid 20 range.

If I need one to challenge my players at a lower-CR, I'll use an aspect or proxy.

 

P

paradox42

First Post

• May 26, 2006

• #9

Well, looks like I get to be the first advocate for mega-power campaigns. My true "big bads" are invariably well over CR 20, and most of the actual NPC big bads are actually 40th level or beyond. Monster-wise, I've given class levels to epic monsters to make them tougher and useful as villians, such as the Uvuudaum Sorcerer my epic party will have to face soon (for real- they already faced a lesser "copy" of it courtesy of the Bygone template from Legends of Avadnu).

Of course, in this game, gods have a tendency to show up in person fairly often, and my characters have been meeting and dealing with them that way since about 9th level or so. Really, I have a strong preference for wild epic games, and it definitely shows in the way I constructed my world. I like more superhero-fantasy than Lord of the Rings, I suppose. Fortunately my players are enjoying the games too.

 

Piratecat

Sesquipedalian

• May 26, 2006

• #10

The PCs in my game are 21st-22nd lvl. Right now my Big Bad Evil Guys are astoundingly powerful undead worms (about ten times the size of a purple worm), a low lvl noble (NPC class) with a vast network, and a bunch of people in between. I like having a mix; it makes things seem more realistic to me.