Cityscape

Several folks have it now, and the other thread is stuck in an infinite loop about the very concept of an urban druid (not in the book, go see the other thread to participate).

Folks who have the book: How is it? How does it compare to Cityworks? Is it complimentary or overlapping with the city material in A Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe? Is it worth tearing the urban-related pages from Races of Destiny to combine with Cityscape? Is there anything about the book that screams "use me?" How does it compare to the other WotC environmental books?

I posted this in the other thread, here it is again.

Infernal Teddy said:

I'd still like to hear how it compares to Cityworks...

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Hey, I can field that one. I'm a fan of FFG, but when you compare a 3 year old book to a new WotC book with high production values, WotC naturally has an edge. The respective authors, Mearls and Marmell, are both fan favorites around here so it's an interesting comparison I think.

Cityworks is more crunch, but not by terribly much. There are more base classes, PrCs and rules for resolving actions, but the feats and spells are about the same. Cityworks does not have new monsters. Both books have systems for planning the layout of a city, but they have a different approach. Cityscape is more top-down and modular, with more information on what something like a fisher's wharf might contain. Cityworks lets you generate layout randomly for a finer grained, but less detailed city. I prefer Cityscape's approach.

Cityworks has a larger section on adventuring in a city, and while I haven't read Cityscape's section yet it stands to reason that less space means less information. Cityworks covers guards very well, while Cityscape has a system for legal proceedings. Both have sections on urban events which cover some of the same things. Cityworks goes into more detail, but covers much fewer events. Cityscape goes into much more detail on power structures and organizations, while Cityworks has useful random tables, including several for random urban encounters ("A con artist tries to sell the characters his magical potions of love/knowledge/beauty/healing").

Overall I would say they're complementary.

I know Cityscape just has a few monsters: Are they any good? I'd like to think having so few suggests that they're the best possible, but I know that's not always true.

Whizbang Dustyboots said:

How does it compare to the other WotC environmental books?

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Honestly, not well. I like Cityscape, and the spine looks like it was meant to be shelved with the environmental books, but it's not an environmental book. Most obviously is that the environmental books are high crunch while Cityscape is low crunch. Cityscape is largely about designing cities while Frostburn is not so much about designing a glacier. I much prefer the environmental books, but then that's the kind of game I like to run.

Whizbang Dustyboots said:

I know Cityscape just has a few monsters: Are they any good? I'd like to think having so few suggests that they're the best possible, but I know that's not always true.

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They fill a niche in a city, but none really inspired encounter ideas for me. Sepulchral thief is an interesting template that does for rogues what the lich does for mages (except that it's accidental, not intentional). I like that one and I can see myself using it eventually. The zeitgeist is sort of a city genus loci, which never appealed to me.

Whizbang Dustyboots said:

Several folks have it now, and the other thread is stuck in an infinite loop about the very concept of an urban druid (not in the book, go see the other thread to participate).

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An urban druid you say? What's that?

(Just kidding- thanks for starting a new thread, btw- I was thinking of doing the same).

On the subject of Cityscape- from what I read on the Wizards boards, some of the city design information is culled from the Web Enhancement on the Wizards site. I don't know if you've seen that WE or not, but if so, can you say whether it is just a reprint, or has it been expanded? And does it take up a large portion of the book (ie, is Cityscape worth it if you just download the WE)?

I've also got both Cityworks and Cityscape, and I agree that they're complementary. Cityscape indeed has nicer production values, with full-color illustrations of example cities and the standard WotC D&D3.5 trade dress. Both do a decent job of describing the typical neighborhoods in a fantasy city.

However, I've found Cityworks slightly more useful in designing a city from the ground up. It has somewhat more "crunch," and the modular ward design is better than Cityscape's mere numbering of identical type neighborhoods in different cities. What happens when the temple district is next to the poorer part of town? Or the necropolis near the nobility?

Cityscape provides good examples of trade, military, religious centers, but why not provide maps of example demihuman and humanoid cities? Both provide prestige classes and new feats and spells, but how about an explanation of the great variety in real-world cities driven by environment, culture, and technology? Arabian cities were different from Chinese ones, partly because of the accretion of history. How are urban N.P.C.s different from those encountered in smaller towns? A party stronghold or safehouse is another potentially good location to describe. Minas Tirith is different from Edoras or Moria...

I would also have liked floor plans for typical urban buildings: a theater, a guild hall, a guard tower, some sewers, or an urban church or magic school/library, for example. Dungeon Masters shouldn't have to go to other books for them. It would also have been nice, but not necessarily expected, if examples of urban centers should look/feel in steampunk (a la Eberron), high-magic (Forgotten Realms), modern/science fiction (various WotC and D20 licenses), and low-tech/low magic (Kalamar) settings. That said, I definitely recommend both books to D.M.s running urban scenarios.

You've got a good start on a review there, ed.

Thanks.

Whizbang Dustyboots said:

You've got a good start on a review there, ed.

Thanks.

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I was thinking the same, and also want to express thanks.

I see this book after nearly 1 1/2 month, so until this time I will love this thread.

edemaitre said:

I would also have liked floor plans for typical urban buildings: a theater, a guild hall, a guard tower, some sewers, or an urban church or magic school/library, for example. Dungeon Masters shouldn't have to go to other books for them. It would also have been nice, but not necessarily expected, if examples of urban centers should look/feel in steampunk (a la Eberron), high-magic (Forgotten Realms), modern/science fiction (various WotC and D20 licenses), and low-tech/low magic (Kalamar) settings. That said, I definitely recommend both books to D.M.s running urban scenarios.

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I pretty much agree with you until this paragraph. I bought all those map programs and map tiles for a reason, that is because I have already bought a ton of other materials to give me the "standard" as well as the ability to create variations. I suppose if you don't have these types of aids I would feel the same as you. As it is I recommend people get them. They are pretty handy and only seem pricey with ink jet printers, plus there are "refill" ways to get that cost even lower.