Twinswords
First Post
Why not the druid spell epedemic. 9th level masters of the wild. use a couple of dominated subject walking around the camps. and then simply assinate the clerics. Use blinding fever and you will have a blind army in no time.
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How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress?
Numion said:About the logistics: Wouldn't vallorean clerics be able to Create Food and Water? Support would be very hard if done, as someone said, with 1500 wagons.
Very expensive solution could be either bags of holding, or the teleportation rings.
The problem with Create Food & Water is this:
From the SRD:
Create Food and Water
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Clr 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Food and water to sustain three humans or one horse/level for 1 day
Duration: 24 hours (see text)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The food that this spell creates is simple fare of the character's choice—highly nourishing, if rather bland. The food decays and becomes inedible within 24 hours, although it can be kept fresh for another 24 hours by casting a purify food and water spell on it. The water created by this spell is just like clean rain water. The water doesn’t go bad as the food does.
A 20 level cleric can produce food for 60 men for one day with this. At that rate, it will need 5833 of these 3rd level clerical spells cast by 20th level casters to produce enough provisions to feed an army of 350,000 men, not counting any normal mounts. If a 20th level cleric utilized all slots 3rd level and all the way up to his 9th level slots (approx a total of 31 slots) simply for multiples of that spell, it would take around 188 20th lvl clerics to do this. They would expend every spell of higher than 2nd level, except for domain spells.
Purify Food & Drink suffers from the same problem:
From the SRD:
Purify Food and Drink
Universal
Level: Clr 0, Drd 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 10 ft.
Target: 1 cu. ft./level of contaminated food and water
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)
This spell makes spoiled, rotten, poisonous, or otherwise contaminated food and water pure and suitable for eating and drinking. This spell does not prevent subsequent natural decay or spoilage. Unholy water and similar food and drink of significance is spoiled by purify food and drink, but the spell has no effect on creatures of any type nor upon magic potions.
Note: Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons and weighs about 60 pounds.
So a 20th lvl caster can purify a 5'x4'x1' volume. Figure at least that a wagon is 5' long, 4' wide and 4' high. This requires 4 of his 0 level spells to purify 1 wagon. (I forget how many wagons the original poster stated to support the army for one day).
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Re: Re: How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress?
While I basically agree, I don't know how to tackle the topic of logistics in SHARK's world. I know from past posts that his legions rely on magic packs of endless MREs (rations). How do you deal with that? And his warrior priests can systematically create food and water.Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics.
Aside from the issue of whether magically supplied troops need mundane supply lines or not, we're under orders to hold this strongpoint while our allies mass in the North and Northeast.I abandon my fortress, fall back before the advancing Vallorean army, scorching the earth as I go. My supply lines get shorter and shorter, his get longer and longer. I send werewolves and high-level parties to destroy his supplies and kill his mules and bullocks. Eventually his supply fails. I wait for his troops to get hungry, and then counter-attack.
Interesting point. Considering just how much time and money goes into producing magic items, a few magical commando raids with a few castings of Mordenkainen's Disjunction should cripple the Vallorean war effort. Have the Valloreans faced this before? If not, maybe they're not ready for it.If is important to prevent enemy spellcasters from taking advantage of the months leading up to the assault to stock up on scrolls, potions, magical weapons, and wondrous items.
Restoration's 4th level. Used to fighting Vampire hordes, the oh-so-magical Valloreans might very well be cranking out Wands of Restoration. (At 21,000 gp a pop though, how many can they reasonably have?)The enemy will be depending heavily on clerics to deal with diseases, level drains, and so forth. But he can't have many who can cast restoration, resurrection, and the like.
True, but aren't these high-level clerics (a) hard to kill, and (b) within the protective confines of forts magically warded against evil, teleporting assassins?A program of assassinations against high-level clerics should cut down drastically on the enemy's ability to cast Resurrection, Restoration, Remove Curse, &c..
To give a better feel for what SHARK's Vallorean legions can do, I decided to quote a snippet from one of his posts to the Military Tactics thread:
It shouldn't be far-fetched to assume that armies would routinely deploy invisible, hasted Rogues. Or Rangers. And so on. Flying columns of cavalry, assault wizards, as well as even normal horses routinely augmented with magic horseshoes or haste, and so on. Magic communications would vastly change the dynamics of military operations. The side who had better command and control over their forces would have the advantage over the side who didn't.
Battlefield healing and medical evacuation would be far superior. Even if say, there isn't enough clerics to instantly heal everyone. So what? You may very well have hasted, multi-legged medical golems that can load and carry wounded soldiers to field hospitals where surgeons can begin work on them. While riding inside this thing, healing gas would be emitted into the chamber to keep the dying character stable. These battlefield hospitals could greatly enhance the disease resistance, poison resistance, and wound recovery of normal soldiers without the direct actions of powerful clerics. These centers could do so with magical equipment and the presence of trained physicians, surgeons, and healers. Think of how these developments alone could change the way and consequences of warfare. Again, though, these kinds of developments would most likely come along with urbanized, wealthy, sophisticated societies. Less organized realms would not have the power, resources, organization, or coordination to have such refinements. Imagine these differences being in stark contrast to a confederation of Orc tribes waging war against a powerful, sophisticated human kingdom.
spunky_mutters
First Post
This reminds me of the march of the furry red guys from Nine Princes in Amber. They start with about that number (350,000) and they only have a few thousand left by the time they get to the foot of Kolvir. I think you need to take your cue from there. Use divination to keep an eye on the enemy, and start pounding them ASAP.
If you can't reach them from home, send highly mobile (able to magically retreat) strike forces to ravage their normals with magic and get out. Do it day after day. Fight them with weather, terrain, etc. Lay nasty traps in the form of plagues, beasts, etc. in their path. You want to keep your best guys at home to defend against the heroes, as they can show up any time. But you have a lot of forces at your disposal to make sure that their army never reaches you.
As for the heroes, you should track them with divinations, as well. Use a one-two-three punch on them. Hit them with something that looks tough to drain spells, then follow up with something that is tough. When they stop to rest, hit them with something really tough. Always pick inopportune times/locations that work to the advantage of your troops.
If they teleport out. Find where they went and prepare a surprise for the next time the retreat there.
Remember, you're evil AND smart.
If you can't reach them from home, send highly mobile (able to magically retreat) strike forces to ravage their normals with magic and get out. Do it day after day. Fight them with weather, terrain, etc. Lay nasty traps in the form of plagues, beasts, etc. in their path. You want to keep your best guys at home to defend against the heroes, as they can show up any time. But you have a lot of forces at your disposal to make sure that their army never reaches you.
As for the heroes, you should track them with divinations, as well. Use a one-two-three punch on them. Hit them with something that looks tough to drain spells, then follow up with something that is tough. When they stop to rest, hit them with something really tough. Always pick inopportune times/locations that work to the advantage of your troops.
If they teleport out. Find where they went and prepare a surprise for the next time the retreat there.
Remember, you're evil AND smart.
I think there is no real way to stop the Valloreans in the long run. No mtter what you do they will keep coming and they have a huge amount of resources at their disposal.
Most importantly they have the will to use them and to spend however many men it takes
Thats being said I think an unorthodox strategy is the only way to carry this battle.
What I would do is .....
Use your strategic weapons first---
While I don't have the Epic Level Handbook I do know that the spell seed system allows for some awesome spells.
After I defended my forces to the max my first spell would be "Rain of Disjunction" some kind of nasty ultra wide are Mordenkianens Disjunction
I would follow this up with a nasty wise area "spell forgetting" attack then a rain of negative energy .
Scout them out, if they are really weak hit them hard and fast. If it wasn't as effective as you might like move to the next stage
The next stage would be a short guerilla style campaign . I would begin with a a massive buff up of my vampires. I wan't them to be buffed enough to operate during the day.
Their job would be force multiplication. Each vampire should raise some of its own kind as spawn.
Well placed the negative rain will turn a part of the army into undead, wights IIRC use up more clerical resources and heal your troops.
My next attack cycle--- Harrasing and Skirmish warfare against supplies, spellcasters and assorted weak groups.
Hit them hard and run away
Follow up with more Disjunction spells, acidic and thermal rains and any other nasty ultra wide area spell you can come up with.
I suspect by this time the Valoreans will have adapted to your tactics---
No problem-- Switch off to summoned monsters, hoards and hoards of them. Swarm of Dragons and afterward as many undead as you can muster.
After that plague charms-- Just a little enchantment that suggests "Everyone not in you unit may be a monster in disguise" or if possible "Everyone but your mates are monsters-- kill them and you can live in honor"
Attack the enemies mind and morale. Sap his will to fight
Its a little like a Star Trek, keep rotating the shield frequency if the enemy adapts---
In this case keep changing tactics
After the long slog, the harrasing attacks, low rations ,the clerical casultys and undead attacks even the mighty legion should be a little weaker.
Offer a parlay-- send out a weak human troop or two to deliver a message
Leave now and we will call of the attack--
When they don't. and you know the Valloreans won't especially not after what you did to them hit with something else you haven't tried before---
Its dicey at this point but you have a 25% of winning---
As for the Ultra High Levels--- Well they expend the full battle load out of magic on the enemies special troops. Do this early on than run.
The Hobgoblins and the humans are replacable in time and eventually you will be able to hit deep into the Empire for a little payback.
<WHEW>
Oh I had a question SHARK
Did you convert directly over to 3e from Rolemaster?
I noticed you had 50th level characters out there. Those levels don't convert 1-1.
Two Rolemaster levela are about equal to one 3e level
If the Evil leader dude is 50th level that means he was about a hundred in Rolemaster OUCH!
Most importantly they have the will to use them and to spend however many men it takes
Thats being said I think an unorthodox strategy is the only way to carry this battle.
What I would do is .....
Use your strategic weapons first---
While I don't have the Epic Level Handbook I do know that the spell seed system allows for some awesome spells.
After I defended my forces to the max my first spell would be "Rain of Disjunction" some kind of nasty ultra wide are Mordenkianens Disjunction
I would follow this up with a nasty wise area "spell forgetting" attack then a rain of negative energy .
Scout them out, if they are really weak hit them hard and fast. If it wasn't as effective as you might like move to the next stage
The next stage would be a short guerilla style campaign . I would begin with a a massive buff up of my vampires. I wan't them to be buffed enough to operate during the day.
Their job would be force multiplication. Each vampire should raise some of its own kind as spawn.
Well placed the negative rain will turn a part of the army into undead, wights IIRC use up more clerical resources and heal your troops.
My next attack cycle--- Harrasing and Skirmish warfare against supplies, spellcasters and assorted weak groups.
Hit them hard and run away
Follow up with more Disjunction spells, acidic and thermal rains and any other nasty ultra wide area spell you can come up with.
I suspect by this time the Valoreans will have adapted to your tactics---
No problem-- Switch off to summoned monsters, hoards and hoards of them. Swarm of Dragons and afterward as many undead as you can muster.
After that plague charms-- Just a little enchantment that suggests "Everyone not in you unit may be a monster in disguise" or if possible "Everyone but your mates are monsters-- kill them and you can live in honor"
Attack the enemies mind and morale. Sap his will to fight
Its a little like a Star Trek, keep rotating the shield frequency if the enemy adapts---
In this case keep changing tactics
After the long slog, the harrasing attacks, low rations ,the clerical casultys and undead attacks even the mighty legion should be a little weaker.
Offer a parlay-- send out a weak human troop or two to deliver a message
Leave now and we will call of the attack--
When they don't. and you know the Valloreans won't especially not after what you did to them hit with something else you haven't tried before---
Its dicey at this point but you have a 25% of winning---
As for the Ultra High Levels--- Well they expend the full battle load out of magic on the enemies special troops. Do this early on than run.
The Hobgoblins and the humans are replacable in time and eventually you will be able to hit deep into the Empire for a little payback.
<WHEW>
Oh I had a question SHARK
Did you convert directly over to 3e from Rolemaster?
I noticed you had 50th level characters out there. Those levels don't convert 1-1.
Two Rolemaster levela are about equal to one 3e level
If the Evil leader dude is 50th level that means he was about a hundred in Rolemaster OUCH!
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Re: Re: How Would You Defend A Mountain Fortress?
A related gambit, one that works in D&D despite most magic, is to provide deserters and POWs with false intelligence before they march to the enemy. If the unsophisticated POWs see frost giants marching around, that's what they'll report to the Vallorean Inquisition. They don't know those giants were illusions.If any enemy troops surrender they ought to be disarmed, given a meal, lectured on how wicked they are to invade their neighbours' country, held overnight, and then released unharmed to eat enemy supplies and to spread the news that their comrades need not fight to the death, fate worse than death, etc.
Standard High-Level Magic vs. High-Level Magic Tactics
SHARK's scenario here is just one specific instance of a much broader, more general problem: how do high-level characters with high-level magic deal with one another? It all becomes so far removed from reality, that the tactics aren't very intuitive. I'm sure someone's given this a lot of thought though, so what are some standard tactics for dealing with high-level enemies?
Teleport, for instance, removes the concept of distance -- and the concept of intervening space. How do you defend against someone who can literally appear anywhere -- without having to pass through any of your armies, any of your city walls, etc.? Can you defend your entire nation? I don't see how.
One limited counter to Teleport is Forbiddance. It keeps out anyone of the wrong alignment, and it prevents planar travel into the area (60-ft cube/level) -- and it's permanent. It doesn't keep people from teleporting right next to your fortress, but it's a start.
I suppose Dimensional Anchor can ruin a hit-and-run teleporter's day -- but what are the odds you have someone with a Dimensional Anchor ready when the magic commandos arrive? And is it worth anything if you don't have a locally superior force?
Anyway, those are some of the issues with teleporting. I haven't even touched on scrying.
SHARK's scenario here is just one specific instance of a much broader, more general problem: how do high-level characters with high-level magic deal with one another? It all becomes so far removed from reality, that the tactics aren't very intuitive. I'm sure someone's given this a lot of thought though, so what are some standard tactics for dealing with high-level enemies?
Teleport, for instance, removes the concept of distance -- and the concept of intervening space. How do you defend against someone who can literally appear anywhere -- without having to pass through any of your armies, any of your city walls, etc.? Can you defend your entire nation? I don't see how.
One limited counter to Teleport is Forbiddance. It keeps out anyone of the wrong alignment, and it prevents planar travel into the area (60-ft cube/level) -- and it's permanent. It doesn't keep people from teleporting right next to your fortress, but it's a start.
I suppose Dimensional Anchor can ruin a hit-and-run teleporter's day -- but what are the odds you have someone with a Dimensional Anchor ready when the magic commandos arrive? And is it worth anything if you don't have a locally superior force?
Anyway, those are some of the issues with teleporting. I haven't even touched on scrying.
Broken Fang
First Post
Not that it helps much but Hallow is 10' radius a level and places one spell in that area for 1 year...dimensional anchor is one of the spells that can be used with it. You might need a bunch of them, but I'm thinking it would help...better them right next to it than somewhere in it.
Bringing 350,000 men through mountainous terrain has got to be a major hassle... especially when you can bring half the mountain down on them with a well placed Disintegrate, causing a landslide.
I wouldn't use the majority of the vampires against their main forces, they seem well prepared for that. I'd use them deep in the enemy rear, killing the farmers/workers of the Vallorian Empire. This causes economic havoc, hurting the Vallorian empire right where it is strongest. Its the little people's taxes that pays, feeds, and clothes the army marching against you.
Just as you cannot be everywhere to defend your two cities, neither can they.
Have a method to call some of them back in time for the epic battle.
If you are worried about engineers tunnelling, create lava or water pools in the depths of the fortress at likely points for the miners to tunnel into (or passwall into).
It really just comes down to intelligence and trying to wear their strength down before you engage. There is only so much preparation you can do.
I wouldn't use the majority of the vampires against their main forces, they seem well prepared for that. I'd use them deep in the enemy rear, killing the farmers/workers of the Vallorian Empire. This causes economic havoc, hurting the Vallorian empire right where it is strongest. Its the little people's taxes that pays, feeds, and clothes the army marching against you.
Just as you cannot be everywhere to defend your two cities, neither can they.
Have a method to call some of them back in time for the epic battle.
If you are worried about engineers tunnelling, create lava or water pools in the depths of the fortress at likely points for the miners to tunnel into (or passwall into).
It really just comes down to intelligence and trying to wear their strength down before you engage. There is only so much preparation you can do.
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