Is there a distinction between Bluffing and Lying?

SWAT

First Post
With every group I've played with over the years, any lie told by a PC or NPC has always led to a Bluff check if anyone was trying to Sense Motive. But, I just found this question concerning D20 Modern, answered by one of its designers:

What's the difference between the Investigator's discern lies ability and the normal use of the Sense Motive skill?

The Sense Motive skill can be used for two purposes: to overcome a bluff, and to get a sense of a GM character's trustworthiness. Understanding the difference between this skill and the discern lie class feature begins with understanding the difference between a bluff and a lie.

A lie is a simple misrepresentation of the facts. For example, if a suspect tells you she was in Chicago on the day of the crime, when in fact she wasn't, that's a lie. If a client tells you she'll pay $10,000 for the job when she really intends to stiff you, that's a lie too. Body language and attitude are part of such communication, but not necessarily the major part. A lie may be very sophisticated and well thought-out, and it is intended to deceive someone at least until evidence to the contrary is discovered.

A bluff, on the other hand, is a quick prevarication intended to distract, confuse, or mislead someone -- generally only for the short term. It is intended to momentarily deter an action or decision, not to withstand long-term or careful scrutiny. You bluff your way past a security guard by flashing your video club card as though it were a press pass and acting like you know what you're doing. You bluff your way out of a brawl by acting like you're tougher than the 250-pound biker who's challenging you. Bluffs depend almost completely on attitude and body language. They may or may not involve actual lies, but if they do, those lies usually aren't very sophisticated and aren't intended to deceive the target for more than a few moments.

The first usage of the Sense Motive skill mentioned above allows you to see through a bluff with a successful check, but it doesn't help you determine whether any given statement is a lie. From a purely mechanical standpoint, an NPC should not have to make a Bluff check every time she utters a lie. And if no Bluff check is required, there's nothing for the Sense Motive check to oppose.

The second function of the Sense Motive skill is to determine the general trustworthiness of a character. When the skill is used this way, a successful check might reveal that your suspect is highly -- well -- suspicious, and that she might tend to lie to you. But that doesn't tell you which, if any, of her statements are actually untrue. In fact, an NPC can be highly untrustworthy even if she doesn't happen to be telling any lies at the moment. Again from a mechanical standpoint, this usage of Sense Motive requires a whole minute to use, so it can't be applied to a single statement.

The discern lies class feature, on the other hand, is specifically designed to determine the truth of an individual statement.

Egads! Nowhere in the PHB Bluff skill description can I find evidence that the rules are any different in D&D. So, in D&D, is there truly this distinction between bluffing and lying?
 

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Felix

Explorer
I don't know that this specific answer must necessarily apply to DnD, but I do like it. It's well written and useful. May as well use it.
 

Li Shenron

Legend
Their description of what's a lie and what's a bluff (meant as the act, not as the skill Bluff as a whole) is very nice.

But this:

The first usage of the Sense Motive skill mentioned above allows you to see through a bluff with a successful check, but it doesn't help you determine whether any given statement is a lie. From a purely mechanical standpoint, an NPC should not have to make a Bluff check every time she utters a lie. And if no Bluff check is required, there's nothing for the Sense Motive check to oppose.

makes me completely disagree. This is just completely wrong, I have no idea how can the author has possibly come to that conclusion. Sense Motive was absolutely intended to let you catch a lie. An NPC definitely rolls Bluff (or takes 10) every time he knowingly says a lie.
 

Darklone

Registered User
I guess the author means:
with a Sense Motive check you see whether the other one is lying... But you can't find out whether what he tells you is a lie.

It's handwaving... the sentences are just there to give a DM the justification that a player with Sense Motive isn't a lie-detector.
 

irdeggman

First Post
Well your past experiences are absolutely correct.

From a game mechanics standpoint, if someone is attempting to lie then there is a required Bluff veruse Sense Motive check if someone is trying to discern if the character is lieing.

Essentially (and pretty much what the d20 Modern response is saying) is that lieing is a subset of Bluffing.

A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as you wish, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that you want it to believe. Bluff, however, is not a suggestion spell.


Under Sense Motive:
Check: A successful check lets you avoid being bluffed (see the Bluff skill). You can also use this skill to determine when “something is up” (that is, something odd is going on) or to assess someone’s trustworthiness.

Hunch: This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another’s behavior that something is wrong, such as when you’re talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.


There is also the spell Discern Lies which helps to convey the "difference" between the two.

Each round, you concentrate on one subject, who must be within range. You know if the subject deliberately and knowingly speaks a lie by discerning disturbances in its aura caused by lying. The spell does not reveal the truth, uncover unintentional inaccuracies, or necessarily reveal evasions.
 

Cabral

First Post
As I understand it, there are two subtle distinctions:
Is the statement a lie and is the speaker lying.

Sense Motive won't tell you that "I don't know where the jade falcon is" is false, but it could tell you that the speaker seems nervous and is likely lying. If that's all he said, the conclusion is fairly obvious, however, if it was one statement amongst many, Sense Motive wouldn't let you pick out the falsehood.

Also, consider that the nervousness and uneasyness you picked up could be general nervousness from the stress of scrutiny rather than actually lying in response to the question. Detecting the difference should (IMO) be more of a judgement call on the player's part than a skill check.
 

delericho

Legend
Lying is a subset of the Bluff skill. When a character lies, he should be making a Bluff check.

A successful Sense Motive check should indicate that something is amiss about the character's statement, but it should never indicate certainty. Discern lies does provide certainty. Note that neither ability reveals the truth; they merely unmask the lie for what it is. Additionally, neither ability is of any use of the target sincerely believes what he is saying.

To suggest that the Sense Motive skill is of no use in detecting lies would be incorrect. To suggest that it is an infallible method of detecting a lie, even on a successful check, would also be incorrect.
 


delericho

Legend
interwyrm said:
What if you're telling the truth, and the other person doesn't initially believe you?

If the PC is telling the truth, the NPC just doesn't believe you - Sense Motive doesn't help at all in this case.

If the NPC is telling the truth, the PC makes a Sense Motive check, the DM rolls a d20 behind his screen, and then casually announces "you don't notice anything untoward in his manner." (Note: many DMs will prefer to roll Sense Motive checks for their players, so they don't know how they did. In which case, be sure to make two rolls behind your screen - the actual Sense Motive check and the fake Bluff check.)

Sense Motive is useless if the statement is true.
 

irdeggman

First Post
delericho said:
If the PC is telling the truth, the NPC just doesn't believe you - Sense Motive doesn't help at all in this case.

If the NPC is telling the truth, the PC makes a Sense Motive check, the DM rolls a d20 behind his screen, and then casually announces "you don't notice anything untoward in his manner." (Note: many DMs will prefer to roll Sense Motive checks for their players, so they don't know how they did. In which case, be sure to make two rolls behind your screen - the actual Sense Motive check and the fake Bluff check.)

Sense Motive is useless if the statement is true.


Pretty much the only thing a successful (note successful) Sense Motive Check would indicate is that the speaker is trustworthy (see Hunch above).

An unsuccessful check will provide nothing useful - so the character has no reason to change his mind on what he believes.
 

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