Firearms

The Lost Muse · Dec 20, 2006

I'm shortly beginning a campaign set in Eberron, with the additions of Freeport and Ptolus. My question is which of these options will make firearms deadly without totally overpowering the game?

1) Firearms have a x3 critical similar to the longbow, and are as written in the Ptolus book.

2) Firearms have a x3 multiplier and gain a +3 bonus to hit and damage.

3) Firearms have a x2 multiplier, and hit on a ranged touch attack.

Thanks in advance.

Brother MacLaren · Dec 20, 2006

Timmundo said:
I'm shortly beginning a campaign set in Eberron, with the additions of Freeport and Ptolus. My question is which of these options will make firearms deadly without totally overpowering the game?

1) Firearms have a x3 critical similar to the longbow, and are as written in the Ptolus book.

2) Firearms have a x3 multiplier and gain a +3 bonus to hit and damage.

3) Firearms have a x2 multiplier, and hit on a ranged touch attack.

Thanks in advance.

Option 3 is far too powerful. Heavy crossbows can also penetrate armor, but still have to make hit rolls. Heavy armor can (sometimes) stop bolts or bullets. Not to mention that some monsters have +40 natural armor bonuses, and to ignore this would be obsecenely overpowered. (Imagine if 100 guys with arquebuses could stop Godzilla.)

For Option 2, if you think 1d12 damage is too low, I'd suggest increasing the die size (preserving as much scatter as possible, so 1d20 rather than 2d10 or 3d6) instead of a flat bonus to damage. Maybe increase crits to x4. And remove the bonus to hit, considering the inaccuracy of early firearms.

The ones in the DMG are pretty lethal. Damage is 1d12 for a musket, and it has triple criticals, allowing for a wide range of impacts (from a graze to one-shotting a lion). It's more deadly than any bow or crossbow. [Edit: It's more deadly than any standard bow before Str bonus, but a composite bow has no limit to possible Str. The antimatter rifle's 6d8, median 27, is just slightly higher than the Storm Giant's Composite Longbow.]

frankthedm · Dec 20, 2006

Timmundo said:
I'm shortly beginning a campaign set in Eberron, with the additions of Freeport and Ptolus. My question is which of these options will make firearms deadly without totally overpowering the game?

2) Firearms have a x3 multiplier and gain a +3 bonus to hit and damage.

As long as the ammo is slow to load and natural 1's cause problems this is fine for the heavier rifles. But only when actions are lost loading the weapon.

For medium and larger Heavy Crossbows, I've altered the damage and allow them to ignore some of the target's armor. The larger ones do a lot of damage, because when man meets heavy machine, machine makes man meat. Also a balista hit should be fatal to the average horse or other 3HD creature.

Medium: Ignores 2 points of armor [1 point of natural armor if armor is not worn] 1d8+2 damage

Large: Ignores 4 points of armor [2 points of natural armor if armor is not worn] 2d6+4 damage.

Huge: Ignores 8 points of armor [4 points of natural armor if armor is not worn] 3d6+8 damage. This will drop a riding horse in one blow and puncture nonmagical fullplate like tinfoil, as a balista should.

frankthedm · Dec 20, 2006

Brother MacLaren said:
The ones in the DMG are pretty lethal. Damage is 1d12 for a musket, and it has triple criticals, allowing for a wide range of impacts (from a graze to one-shotting a lion). It's more deadly than any bow or crossbow.

But 1d12 is only about the same as 1d8+2.

I do the 'hit' bonus as only applying against armor. Not more accurate, just more chance of going through the protection.

Vuron · Dec 20, 2006

Firearms as ranged touch attacks are generally seen as too powerful as they tend to negate alot of the power of high AC tanks. If you want to do this I would suggest using the armor as DR rules from Unearthed Arcana. Thus it's generally easier to hit an armored foe but the DR tends to make the bullet slightly less lethal.

I'd avoid option 2 as firearms pre-rifling are actually fairly inaccurate weapons.

Assuming you feel that option 1 is too weak you could consider increasing either the crit multiplier to x4 or increasing the threat range to 19-20.

pallandrome · Dec 20, 2006

RANDOM TRIVIA MOMENT!!!

Did you know that the term "bullet proof" comes from the practice of firing a round into the breastplate of plate armor? The indentation confirmed that it could withstand the shot...the "bullet proof", as it were. Evidence of the practice is visible in many modern museums via a quick tour of the mideval armor section.

*the more you know*

frankthedm · Dec 20, 2006

Vuron said:
I'd avoid option 2 as firearms pre-rifling are actually fairly inaccurate weapons.

Don't forget modern games cut gun ranges really badly for playability. What is inaccurate for a bullet tends to be fairly dead on in D&D scale combat. I would say a non-rifled firearm should have the max of 5 range increments like a thrown weapon, rather than the max of 10 like most projectile weapon.

The hit bonus I would suspect was meant to represent the bullet breaking through armor rather than being more accurate.

A man sized pistol should have to contend with armor, a rifle not so much.

Vuron · Dec 20, 2006

frankthedm said:
Don't forget modern games cut gun ranges really badly for playability. What is inaccurate for a bullet tends to be fairly dead on in D&D scale combat. I would say a non-rifled firearm should have the max of 5 range increments like a thrown weapon, rather than the max of 10 like most projectile weapon.

The hit bonus I would suspect was meant to represent the bullet breaking through armor rather than being more accurate.

A man sized pistol should have to contend with armor, a rifle not so much.

I might even go further and say that both shorter range increments and a maximum of 5 increments should be used. That would help indicate that not only are pre-rifle firearms quite inaccurate at longer ranges but that the relatively slow muzzle velocity of the early firearm reduced lethality as the range increased beyond a certain point.

HeavenShallBurn · Dec 21, 2006

Heinous Damage, Slow Reload

This is how I would handle it, increase the damage to just past the level you are comfortable with, but really make them take a hit on reload time and range.
Light Pistol-2d6x3 30ft 3lb piercing*
Horse Pistol-2d10x3 30ft 5lb piercing*
Musket-3d6x3 50ft 10lb piercing*
*reloading these firearms is a time consuming process that requires two full round actions

Beyond about fifty yards a pre-rifling musket was incredibly inaccurate, something that not even modern reproductions can replicate because the quality of manufacture and materials was so low. So really cut down on accuracy by shortening the range increment as during their early development bows could out-range firearms. Remember even Wellington's soldiers and Napoleon's were averaging about 3 shots per minute, so slow down the loading time quite a bit make it eat up maybe two round with a shot on the third which is just a bit more than 3 per minute in game. To counteract this ramp up the damage to a level that would really put the hurt on even higher level characters and take out low level ones quickly. But god above were those old mules spectacular when they hit flesh. Most of them were in the range of .70 to .80 inch bore with nice soft bullets and when they hit they would mangle entire limbs in a way modern small-bore high-velocity rounds don't so definitely a high critical.

irdeggman · Dec 21, 2006

None.

Use the D20Modern rules.

While they actually have neutered firearms - it is the "official" WotC system for d20 Firearms and it makes more sense to import that system into the game instead of attempting to come up a new and more accurate one.

I've attached the d20Modern SRD rules.