D&D 3E/3.5 ToB: Bo9S - Nifft's Compendium

Nifft · Mar 26, 2007

Shadowdancer "shadow companion" clarification is up.

Everyone, please take a look at the Stone Defender -- a variant of the Dwarven Defender. He's not race-specific, but easily could be restricted to Dwarves if that suits your setting.

Cheers, -- N

jasin · Mar 26, 2007

Nifft said:
On a related note, I do allow Cleave on an AoO, because I feel Cleave is otherwise kinda weak.

The solution I liked best was not counting the AoO if you dropped the opponent and have Cleave.

I'm also okay with this example you present -- here's how I'd narrate it:

OK, I guess I can see that.

And it's not as if ToB doesn't already have plenty of precedent for getting AoOs on people who haven't really done anything to deserve it.

Hmm, I don't really see how.

I think it would be enough to limit it so that the shadowdancer cannot just spawn an unlimited amount of shadows no matter how many get killed.

Which ability should be their capstone, then?

Perhaps something that lets the shadow use your maneuvers (expending them from your list as normal)? It's your own shadow, after all; I think it could be both appropriate and useful.

Nifft · Mar 26, 2007

My favorite counter combo with Riposte is Rapid Counter -- "Whaddya mean he gets to hit me three times!?"

Might actually make Stance of Alacrity worth having.

jasin said:
I think it would be enough to limit it so that the shadowdancer cannot just spawn an unlimited amount of shadows no matter how many get killed.

See, I really don't care if you have a free Shadow. They have a +3 to hit, and their movement rate isn't fantastic. They're great for scouting and good for flanking, and on the rare occasion that you're fighting something with low Strength and low touch AC, it's actually strong.

But I'm not giving out extra hit dice, or attack bonuses, or anything else.

Also, there is a limit: one shadow at a time, and you can't use any other Stances while one exists. "As often as you like" is totally in the spirit of the Tome of Battle.

jasin said:
Perhaps something that lets the shadow use your maneuvers (expending them from your list as normal)? It's your own shadow, after all; I think it could be both appropriate and useful.

That may indeed be perfect. Let me think about it for a bit, and see what can be done with strikes to replace attack rolls.

Thanks, -- N

GoodKingJayIII · Mar 27, 2007

I haven't delved too much into your variants, but just from skimming your work last week I decided to give Bo9S a shot, and I have to say I like it a lot more than I ever thought I would.

I'm still reviewing the ins and outs of the system and grappling with a lot of basic questions, like "Are fighters worth including with Swordsages/Warblades?" but overall I really like it. It has a lot less of a... cultural... wuxia-feel while still retaining the cool rulesset. In other words, it's not flavor-dependent, which was why I was initially hesitant about the book.

Crashy75 · Mar 27, 2007

GoodKingJayIII said:
I haven't delved too much into your variants, but just from skimming your work last week I decided to give Bo9S a shot, and I have to say I like it a lot more than I ever thought I would.

I'm still reviewing the ins and outs of the system and grappling with a lot of basic questions, like "Are fighters worth including with Swordsages/Warblades?" but overall I really like it. It has a lot less of a... cultural... wuxia-feel while still retaining the cool rulesset. In other words, it's not flavor-dependent, which was why I was initially hesitant about the book.

Yeah i am completely seduced by the ToB. I've even started experimenting with giving some core/base classes a maneuver progression. I believe Nfft will go in that direction as well *hoping* It's become quite a project however. For example, what would you do with a sublime rogue? Well, the obvious answer would be shadowhand. But what if you want him to be non-supernatural? Well, you have to create your own stealth-based discipline. I must be ¼ way through about 6 different disciplines not to mention about ½ way through about 6 base classes. Ahhh but it’s a labor of love.

Nifft · Mar 27, 2007

The short answer is you don't have to create a Sublime Rogue. You can mix Rogue and Swordsage, or Rogue and Warblade, or even Rogue and Crusader -- why not? Rogue mixes very well with everything.

The mid-length answer is an optimization exercise. I figure a full-classed Rogue could take Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt) at 6th level, Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) as a feat for his 10th level Rogue special ability, and Shadow Blade as his 12th level feat. Then, Gloom Razor as his 15th level feat. With UMD and some Wands of Blur / Displacement / Greater Invisibility and/or a Ring of Blinking, he'll have ample opportunity to use his combat options.

The long answer is... well, I guess I'll think about doing the Ranger and the Monk. There should be a Paladin / Blackguard prestige class for Crusaders who want to be even more divinely oriented. What else is there that needs "sublimation"?

Thanks, -- N

saucercrab · Mar 27, 2007

Nifft said:
The way I see it, offensive buffs are stances or boosts, attacks are strikes, and defensive buffs are counters.

Summoning a shadow could be a Boost, but then the duration would have to be 1 round, and that would suck -- you already see what a flank-buddy is worth (Distracting Ember, p. 52). A flank-buddy who got to attack couldn't appear adjacent to you (an idea which I rather like).

It could be a Strike that animates your shadow to attack a foe within 30 ft., but then you couldn't attack with your flank-buddy. Effectively, you'd make yourself a flank-buddy and summon a sucky monster to attack in your place. Lame.

Basically, it's messy. If you can see how to make a USEFUL shadow companion out of a non-stance maneuver, please let me know! I can't see any way that allows it to scout, attack, and act as a flank-buddy, which are the three roles which I see them filling.

I could see it as either a Boost or a Strike. There are some manuevers with lasting effects. Salamander Charge (page 55) is the most blatant.

Distracting Ember is a precedent for making an independent thingy; & it's only a 1st level maneuver so the duration fits. Make Summon Shadow a 7th level or higher maneuver, & give it a better duration, perhaps in rounds equal to PrC level or somesuch.

Page 55, Rising Phoenix stance: there's even an example there of what might cause the stance to end. I agree, it's not common, but there's precedent. (There's probably more; that's just the first one I found.)

Not what I'm talking about. The Rising Phoenix stance can end because of a condition that still affects the character. The Summon Shadow stance can end because of a condition that doesn't affect the character.

Stances seem either reactive, or rely directly on a character's continued actions. Maneuvers seem more the fire-&-forget type. Summon Shadow to me fits the latter category. You initially summon one, but then it acts independently.

BTW (currently), if the shadow dies, but the character doesn't see it, would he know its dead & that the stance is over?

Fixed. Thanks!

Not be a pain but it seems additional readied manuevers are still limited to certain schools. This doesn't seem to be a limit in the official PrCs.

Crashy75 · Mar 27, 2007

Nifft said:
The short answer is you don't have to create a Sublime Rogue. You can mix Rogue and Swordsage, or Rogue and Warblade, or even Rogue and Crusader -- why not? Rogue mixes very well with everything.

The mid-length answer is an optimization exercise. I figure a full-classed Rogue could take Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt) at 6th level, Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) as a feat for his 10th level Rogue special ability, and Shadow Blade as his 12th level feat. Then, Gloom Razor as his 15th level feat. With UMD and some Wands of Blur / Displacement / Greater Invisibility and/or a Ring of Blinking, he'll have ample opportunity to use his combat options.

It is for these reasons that I want to create a sublime rogue actually. A rogue can take 3 levels of swordsage and lose a little to gain so much. Assassin stance saves his sneak progression. Sure, if he'd taken martial stance as a feat it'd be that much better but all those shadow hand maneuvers not to mention diamond mind make him so much more deadly and effective. I remember mkill on the wizards boards was trying to creat a 20th level ability for the rogue to fill in that ugly little dead level. Quite simply there was nothing he could come up with that was as good as taking a single ss level.

The long answer is... well, I guess I'll think about doing the Ranger and the Monk. There should be a Paladin / Blackguard prestige class for Crusaders who want to be even more divinely oriented. What else is there that needs "sublimation"?

Thanks, -- N

The fighter. He needs this kind of versatility.

Nifft · Mar 27, 2007

saucercrab said:
Distracting Ember is a precedent for making an independent thingy; & it's only a 1st level maneuver so the duration fits. Make Summon Shadow a 7th level or higher maneuver, & give it a better duration, perhaps in rounds equal to PrC level or somesuch.

Salamander Charge is a good counter-example. Let me explain my reasoning for the stance, though.

Basically, I want there to be a cost associated. Not a cost in terms of expended resources -- that's the spellcaster way of thinking, where you have a limit on resources. I want a pure opportunity cost that applies exactly when you are gaining the benefit.

A Boost could do it, but not if it could last for multiple rounds, because you'd then be able to get your buddy ("buff up"), recover your maneuvers, and then start a fight. I don't want there ever to be a time when you use the feature and didn't pay for it that same round in some way.

I figured that a Stance would do the trick -- it's a concrete opportunity cost, and it's got a duration. If your shadow died, then getting your buddy back would be the same price as a Boost (Swift action), so you're still encouraged to keep it "alive".

The other thing is that I want the "flavor" of the core shadowdancer's ability, which has three roles: strong scout, moderate flanker, weak attacker. Getting a 5-round shadow companion limits its scouting ability... makes it annoying for me as a DM to adjudicate. But stances can last all day, and when you're scouting with your shadow, you're not also flying, spider climbing, etc.

saucercrab said:
Not what I'm talking about. The Rising Phoenix stance can end because of a condition that still affects the character.

Ironically, the condition ("falling") only affects the character because the stance ends.

saucercrab said:
Stances seem either reactive, or rely directly on a character's continued actions. Maneuvers seem more the fire-&-forget type. Summon Shadow to me fits the latter category. You initially summon one, but then it acts independently.

I disagree. You can gain the benefit of a shadow companion for every round in which it exists. If you only pay for it in round 1 but it lasts until round X, then you just got X-1 rounds of benefit for free. (Which is fine for spellcasters, but IMHO not for martial adepts. ESPECIALLY not if you can summon more than one.)

To compare with Salamander Charge: the Wall of Fire is fixed in location and effect. Once you set it, it's "passive". People can walk around it (or just away from it). The shadow companion is an "active" effect. It can move to follow foes, it can adjust to flank, you can give it various orders.

Please let me know if the "opportunity cost" thing is making sense. It's not the way I'm used to thinking about balance, but it feels right when working on Martial Adepts (and Warlocks).

saucercrab said:
BTW (currently), if the shadow dies, but the character doesn't see it, would he know its dead & that the stance is over?

Yes. You know when your stance ends, and can infer a reason -- maybe it died, maybe it just moved out of range.

saucercrab said:
Not be a pain but it seems additional readied manuevers are still limited to certain schools. This doesn't seem to be a limit in the official PrCs.

Check out page 38. I don't need to specify where you can ready maneuvers from -- you always choose your readied maneuvers from all maneuvers that you know.

Basically, I can't limit these "slots" to specific schools.

Cheers, -- N

Nifft · Mar 27, 2007

Crashy75 said:
I remember mkill on the wizards boards was trying to creat a 20th level ability for the rogue to fill in that ugly little dead level. Quite simply there was nothing he could come up with that was as good as taking a single ss level.

To be fair, one to four levels of Barbarian, Ranger or even Fighter are just as good for a Rogue (relative to Rog20). No Rogue with a positive Int bonus would ever take level 20 if he could take a level of Barbarian, Fighter or Ranger instead. Levels 13, 16 and 19 are perfect exit points. Especially 13 and 16, so he can have BAB +16 at level 20.

As to the Fighter... Ha ha ha!

He's still a great dip class, and there are feats in PHB-II which make it worth taking either 4 or 18 levels.

There are some variant rules which could make the Fighter a better choice... for example, allow Fighter levels to act like Martial PrC levels -- you add ALL of them (not half) to your other Martial Adept class levels to determine your Initiator Level.

"Fighter: the new NPC class."

Thanks, -- N