D&D 3E/3.5 ToB: Bo9S - Nifft's Compendium

[DungeonmasterCal]

@ DungeonmasterCal: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=771597

... but it looks like they're only up to level 4? Huh.

Cheers, -- N

Thanks!

 

[saucercrab]

Added a Shadow Dancer who does all the good stuff that a Shadow Dancer should do, but powered by Martial Adept stuff instead of random wonky mechanics.

Please take a look and gimmie feedback!

Thanks, -- N

Looks neat. I like how you tied in the normal shadow dancer's class abilities with Shadow Hand maneuvers & stances. The only thing I dislike is the limited use of a shadow sidekick. It doesn't jibe (to me) with how stances usually operate & the benefits they give. What about instead making a new Shadow Hand maneuver that can summon a shadow for a number of rounds in an encounter?

About learning new stances when advancing in the PrC (& this applies to all the PrCs you've built), can they learn any, or are they limited to the schools each focuses on?

Also, Hong brought it up a while ago, but what about this instead of martial assassin: murder adept?

 

[Nifft]

Thanks saucercrab!

The only thing I dislike is the limited use of a shadow sidekick. It doesn't jibe (to me) with how stances usually operate & the benefits they give.

Let me try to defend it... please do rebut!

1/ There has to be a cost. The regular Shadowdancer pays in XP when her shadow companion is destroyed; I don't like that mechanic.

2/ There are a lot of Shadow Hand maneuvers which do special things when you flank, and here's a special flank buddy! So I nerf it a bit by making you unable to use your flank stances with your free flank buddy. You still get full benefit from Shadow Blade, though, and you will have at least +3d6 Sneak Attack dice (from this class alone). So it's not a total nerf.

3/ Look at what the Deepstone Sentinel or Jade Phoenix Mage do with stances... I'm using a similar mechanic here. It may not be the best thing in the world, but it's reasonable, and consistent with what's come before.

About learning new stances when advancing in the PrC (& this applies to all the PrCs you've built), can they learn any, or are they limited to the schools each focuses on?

Each PrC has a "Maneuvers" section which lists which schools you are allowed to choose new stances & maneuvers from.

Shadow Dancer, for example, can only choose from Shadow Hand. That's why she gets so many goodies.

- - -

As to names, I like 'em plain. Please feel free to change the names & flavor for your campaign -- I've left the flavor mostly empty for exactly that reason -- but for the purpose of this document, I want it to be blindingly obvious that the Martial Assassin is a martial adept who replaces the Assassin prestige class.

Which reminds me, I should really call the Shadow Dancer the "Martial Shadowdancer".

Thanks, -- N

 

[Nifft]

Added a bunch of new feats -- one regular and one [Tactical] for each of the new schools -- at the end of the 2nd post.

Dig in & enjoy!

Thanks, -- N

 

[jasin]

[Diamond Duelist]

Maneuvers: At each odd level (and 10th), the diamond duelist learns one new maneuver chosen from the Diamond Mind or Iron Heart schools.

ZOMG!

Mang, this gives me flashbacks to Hong's martial artist back when I started 3E! Is it just right or simply too good? I so want it too be just right, but that might just be wishful thinking because I want to play it. It might be simply too good, but then, it might just seem like that to me because it's exactly what I want to play, so of course it seems better than anything else to me.

Good stuff, Nifft.

Besides the duelist which is just cool, and by cool, I mean totally sweet, I particularly liked the shadowdancer. Ever since I first saw it, I loved how it's not just an obvious continuation of one particular base class, but has its own thing, but that's pretty much what kills it: medium BAB and no particular way to back it up just doesn't cut it when other medium BAB people wildshaping, casting divine power and rolling fistfuls of sneak attack dice.

Shadow hand maneuvers might be just the thing to give them.

A couple of suggestions: the diamond duelist's riposte feels wrong to me in that it gives you an AoO against the enemy fighter when you use moment of perfect mind to resist the enemy wizard's hold person. It's like the Cleave AoO thing. I'd limit it to the opponent whose attack you're countering.

It doesn't say, but I'd have the shadowdancers shadow always appear in an adjacent square. Not so much "summon shadow" as "animate your shadow". Not that big a difference, really, I just think it's cooler that way.

Also, do you think the shadowdancer could get the shadow ealier? It's something of a signature ability for the regular shadowdancer, it's a pity this one gets it at 10th. Perhaps saying that if it's killed it cannot reform for 24 hours or something like that?

 

[saucercrab]

Thanks saucercrab!

You're quite welcome.

Let me try to defend it... please do rebut!

1/ There has to be a cost. The regular Shadowdancer pays in XP when her shadow companion is destroyed; I don't like that mechanic.

Expending a readied maneuver is a cost.

2/ There are a lot of Shadow Hand maneuvers which do special things when you flank, and here's a special flank buddy! So I nerf it a bit by making you unable to use your flank stances with your free flank buddy. You still get full benefit from Shadow Blade, though, and you will have at least +3d6 Sneak Attack dice (from this class alone). So it's not a total nerf.

No argument here. (Just a general dislike for the existing mechanic. )

3/ Look at what the Deepstone Sentinel or Jade Phoenix Mage do with stances... I'm using a similar mechanic here. It may not be the best thing in the world, but it's reasonable, and consistent with what's come before.

The martial shadowdancer's Summon Shadow stance can be broken by something that doesn't directly affect the character, i.e. the shadow being destroyed. The higher level the character gets, the more likely & easier that his shadow will get axed, ending the stance.

I don't see any other stances that a character can get forced out of for conditions not having to do with him. He can kick the stance back up if the shadow dies, but it just seems wonky for a stance to end like that.

Each PrC has a "Maneuvers" section which lists which schools you are allowed to choose new stances & maneuvers from.

Shadow Dancer, for example, can only choose from Shadow Hand. That's why she gets so many goodies.

The maneuvers must be picked from certain schools, but the sentences for stances don't say that. If it's inherent that the stance must be from certain schools, then additional readied maneuvers must also be from certain schools. (Existing PrCs state stances must be from select schools, but not additional readied maneuvers.)

As to names, I like 'em plain. Please feel free to change the names & flavor for your campaign -- I've left the flavor mostly empty for exactly that reason -- but for the purpose of this document, I want it to be blindingly obvious that the Martial Assassin is a martial adept who replaces the Assassin prestige class.

Which reminds me, I should really call the Shadow Dancer the "Martial Shadowdancer".

That's fine, I just thought "murder adept" sounded cool & would fit that PrC.

 

[hong]

ZOMG!

Mang, this gives me flashbacks to Hong's martial artist back when I started 3E! Is it just right or simply too good? I so want it too be just right, but that might just be wishful thinking because I want to play it. It might be simply too good, but then, it might just seem like that to me because it's exactly what I want to play, so of course it seems better than anything else to me.

Err... why is it too good? That's 6 new maneuvers over 10 levels. By comparison, the swordsage gets 1 new maneuver each level (total 10), and the warblade gets 1 every other level (total 5). Seems about right to me.

 

[jasin]

As I said, like the martial artist, it probably just seems better than it is because it's exactly what I want to play.

 

[Nifft]

Expending a readied maneuver is a cost.

No argument here. (Just a general dislike for the existing mechanic. )

The way I see it, offensive buffs are stances or boosts, attacks are strikes, and defensive buffs are counters.

Summoning a shadow could be a Boost, but then the duration would have to be 1 round, and that would suck -- you already see what a flank-buddy is worth (Distracting Ember, p. 52). A flank-buddy who got to attack couldn't appear adjacent to you (an idea which I rather like).

It could be a Strike that animates your shadow to attack a foe within 30 ft., but then you couldn't attack with your flank-buddy. Effectively, you'd make yourself a flank-buddy and summon a sucky monster to attack in your place. Lame.

Basically, it's messy. If you can see how to make a USEFUL shadow companion out of a non-stance maneuver, please let me know! I can't see any way that allows it to scout, attack, and act as a flank-buddy, which are the three roles which I see them filling.

The martial shadowdancer's Summon Shadow stance can be broken by something that doesn't directly affect the character, i.e. the shadow being destroyed. The higher level the character gets, the more likely & easier that his shadow will get axed, ending the stance.

I don't see any other stances that a character can get forced out of for conditions not having to do with him. He can kick the stance back up if the shadow dies, but it just seems wonky for a stance to end like that.

Page 55, Rising Phoenix stance: there's even an example there of what might cause the stance to end. I agree, it's not common, but there's precedent. (There's probably more; that's just the first one I found.)

The maneuvers must be picked from certain schools, but the sentences for stances don't say that.

Fixed. Thanks!


Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

Good stuff, Nifft.

Thanks!

A couple of suggestions: the diamond duelist's riposte feels wrong to me in that it gives you an AoO against the enemy fighter when you use moment of perfect mind to resist the enemy wizard's hold person. It's like the Cleave AoO thing. I'd limit it to the opponent whose attack you're countering.

On a related note, I do allow Cleave on an AoO, because I feel Cleave is otherwise kinda weak.

I'm also okay with this example you present -- here's how I'd narrate it:

DM: The hobgoblin duelist snarls at you! "I am Arjuna! And you are mine, monkey-boy!"
Bob the Ftr: I waste it with my sword! *roll* Damn, miss!
Cam the Wiz: I cast hold person on the stupid hobgoblin!
DM: The hobgoblin's motion stops, and Bob relaxes slightly *roll,roll* -- only to find the hobgoblin's sword in his side! "Thank your friend for me!"
Bob the Ftr: "Cam you are NOT HELPING!"
Cam the Wiz: "Sorry Bob!"

... and that could actually encourage people to fight the Duelist one-on-one, since he can counter other people's stuff and use the counters to strike his main opponent.

Of course, the Duelist ideal is more like using Fire Riposte + the Riposte class ability to return a lot more damage than what you were just dealt, or Zephyr Dance to avoid a blow entirely and hit your enemy instead.

It doesn't say, but I'd have the shadowdancers shadow always appear in an adjacent square. Not so much "summon shadow" as "animate your shadow". Not that big a difference, really, I just think it's cooler that way.

You're right, that is cool. Done.

Also, do you think the shadowdancer could get the shadow ealier? It's something of a signature ability for the regular shadowdancer, it's a pity this one gets it at 10th. Perhaps saying that if it's killed it cannot reform for 24 hours or something like that?

Hmm, I don't really see how. Which ability should be their capstone, then?

Thanks, -- N