Parting Gifts

Shayuri · Mar 14, 2007

Hello.

I have been looking at this, thinking, then moseying off...then returning, looking, thinking...

My original idea was a tough, grizzled old paladin...he's now a roaming knight errant, haunted by his memories of war, torn by the compromises of having perfect faith through the intermediary of imperfect human religions... Now he's a loner, with his own personal code, and a direct, personal relationship to his deity. He spurns churches and church hierarchies, considering them to be evidence of human ego and pride...not the ordination of holy will. He doesn't LOOK like a paladin. He's this old guy, riding a magnificent, but kind of run down steed. Wide brimmed hat. Poncho. Slouched posture. Thousand yard stare. He'd fit right into a Clint Eastwood spaghetti western, except for the Holy Avenger in its shoulder scabbard.

He's kind of symptomatic of my occasional yen to play "a different kind of paladin."

Second idea is kind of similar...tough old guy who has little/no patience for BS, and spurns the usual hierarchies and practices of his faith, because he's discovered a much deeper, more personal faith that sustains him. This one is a druid, legendary in his time as a defender of balance and nature...opposing the corruptive magic and undead use of the evil warlords in the Bylan wars, while at the same time making sure that the forces of light never forgot their obligations to the natural order. He goes simply as 'Grandfather,' then and now, though to escape the celebrity of his deeds, he travels in different forms and under assumed names. His garb is humble, his possessions few. While he's an excellent counselor and teacher, his gruff external demeanor is easily misinterpreted by those who cannot see past appearances.

Lord_Raven88 · Mar 14, 2007

kinem said:
The dread necromancer does gain many lich abilities over the course of his levels, but not stat boosts and so on. The text just says he "becomes a lich" and does not spell out what he gets, unlike the Dragon Disciple. It says only a humanoid becomes a lich, and it stands to reason that there should be no huge gap between the power of a humanoid who takes 20 levels in the class and a non-humanoid who does so. Also, imagine how a 19th level dread necromancer lich (who got his lichdom the old fashioned way) would feel - he is ECL 23!

I personally don't think that the 'lich transformation' ability of the Dread Necromancer as all it's doing is speading most of the lich abilities over 20 levels.

The class feature states that 'she undergoes a transformation and becomes a lich'. You are only a lich if you have the lich template, otherwise you're just a regular undead. That's why it mentions the creation of a phylactery, because this is a requirement to becoming a true lich.

Also once the DN gains the lich template quite a few of her abilities become redudant e.g. charnel touch, lich body, mental bastion, fear aura, negative energy resistance, and light fortification. This leaves her with rebuke undead, negative energy burst (4/day), scabrous touch (3/day) advanced learning, and a bonus feat (craft wondrous items).

I don't think that it's unbalanced that the DN gains the lich template which is only +4 compared to the the Dragon Disciple which is +3. After all the DD only has to dedicate 10 levels to achieve this, while the DN has to use 20. That means a DN is a lot less flexible (i.e. with character class option) than a DD.

Also a DN has a very limited focus when it comes to spellcasting, since they can only cast spells from the DN list as well as 5 other necromancy spells (due to their advanced earning ability). If you compare a 20th level DN to a 16th level Sorcerer Lich you'll find that the Sorc while having less spells known, probably has a better chance of survival due to the increased flexibilty with being able to choose a diverse range of spells so that they can deal with a range of situation. The DN is extremely focused (i.e. restricted) due to focusing solely on necromancy spells.

~~~~

Anyway I could go on, but ultimately it is your choice.

So if you aren't going to allow the DN to gain the Lich template, I'll put in another submission.

Also is it possible to go a Necropolitian, if so I'd like to assume my character would have underwent the transformation at 2nd level when he had say 2500 XP, so that would mean that he would have 2000 XP less than everyone else.

I'll post more details once I know if this is allowed

Brother Allard · Mar 14, 2007

Brother Allard said:
Given that there doesn't seem to be room in this campaign for my Duskblade/Beguiler/Havoc Mage/Bear Warrior concept, I'm thinking maybe I'll throw out something old school.

That's right: 20th level human fighter. Sword & board.

Behold ye mighty and despair.

Here's a slightly more detailed version of the same concept.

To look into Willem's round, freckled face is to understand that he was never destined for greatness. In a simpler time, he would have been a farmer, and even now a great part of him yearns for that life - the life of his father.

But things being what they are, he was impressed into the militia in the early days of the war and forced to take up spear and shield in defense of his home. Somehow, miraculously, he survived his first battle. And then his second. And then his third. And somewhere along the road he began to develop a deeper understanding of martial combat. His burgeoning talents were soon recognized and he was pulled back from the front and given special training, arms and armor. Over the long years of the war, he survived many conflicts he should not have, and died and was risen more times than he cares to remember. Always he returned to defend Bylan, to defend his home and family and his brothers and sisters in arms.

At war's end, it was not only his sword arm that was weary. But there are few who now live who could best him at arms, and fewer still who could stand in his place. And so he serves. But in the dark of night, alone in his billet, he dreams of tilled earth and laughing children.

kinem · Mar 14, 2007

Good stuff. Looks like I might have a tough choice

Shay: Cool. How often can you post?

Jemal: I don't blame you. One one the themes this campaign world explores is 'what if gods weren't all man-made'. So unlike the real world, gods in the campaign do limit your choices. Anyway, I think Kurina would be a little more interesting than William.

Ygg: IMC Wee Jas is indifferent towards undeath. She allows her clerics to animate dead but doesn't encourage it.

Raven: While the DD is generally considered a weak class, the dread necromancer is on the powerful side. You get light armor, the ability to heal yourself at will (if you are undead or take the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat; note a regular lich can NOT heal himself with his touch), up to 9th level spells, rebuke undead, and various extras like tougher animated dead.

But since the PCs will get slaughtered anyway, I can afford to be generous. I have reconsidered and would allow lich

If I did allow a necropolitan, it would be at +1 LA.

Clutching Yggdrasil · Mar 14, 2007

kinem said:
Ygg: IMC Wee Jas is indifferent towards undeath. She allows her clerics to animate dead but doesn't encourage it.

But since the PCs will get slaughtered anyway, I can afford to be generous.

Hrmm, I guess that pins the decision down to whether or not Wee Jas is capable of even supporting Paladins.

huh, that's encouraging

I do love a challenge though

I'm curious on the tone and difficulty of your campaign, will I be wasting skill points and gp if I put ranks in skills like diplomacy or gather info or items like a circlet of persuasion? I like RP intensives, but I've noticed that when playing past twelfth level a lot of resources need to be spent on +/ bonuses just to keep up with the monsters or well built (not even necessarily twinked out) fellow PC's.

kinem · Mar 14, 2007

Wee Jas is capable of supporting paladins, but it's rare. A paladin would have to work to show that his actions benefit his faith, but he still can't stray from good or he'll be cast out as an oathbreaker.

There will be opportunities to RP and use social skills. Those opportunities might be missed, but it's certainly possible. But, combat power will definately be important.

Voidrazor · Mar 14, 2007

Clutching Yggdrasil said:
Hrmm, I guess that pins the decision down to whether or not Wee Jas is capable of even supporting Paladins.

huh, that's encouraging I do love a challenge though

I'm curious on the tone and difficulty of your campaign, will I be wasting skill points and gp if I put ranks in skills like diplomacy or gather info or items like a circlet of persuasion? I like RP intensives, but I've noticed that when playing past twelfth level a lot of resources need to be spent on +/ bonuses just to keep up with the monsters or well built (not even necessarily twinked out) fellow PC's.

As an ... erm habitual optimizer, I consider diplomacy to be one of the strongest skills in the game. Even in a hack and slash scenario, the ability to improve NPC attitudes non-magically is unlikely to be a waste of skill points. In terms of magic item optimization, Circlet of Persuasion looks like a good deal to me. Bonuses to AC, saves, etc. are certainly important, but rounding it out with skill bonuses and utility items such as Hat of Disguise is always a good idea.

Kinem - I was wondering if the classes I had in mind for Haessellekh were OK. Since you're not very familiar with psionics, I certainly understand if it takes a while to figure that out. Here's an overview: Psionics are similar to magic but use a pool of points to draw from rather than memorized slots. So essentially a Psion could use their highest level power several times in a row, but once they run out of points for the day they can't use any powers. Each power costs a number of points equal to the minimum level needed to manifest the power. So a 3rd level power costs 5 points while a 7th level one would cost 13. Some powers have an option to augment. This means that more points can be spent to improve the power upon use in a specific way listed in the power's description. Even with augmentation, you can't spend more points on a single activation of a power than your manifester level (essentially the same thing as caster level. Unlike normal magic, there is essentially only one way to raise your manifester level above your class level. That is a feat called Overchannel, that in Haessellekh's case would let her raise her raise her manifester level by 2 for the activation of a single power by taking 3d8 damage.

Generally speaking, wizards have access to spells that do everything that psionic powers can do. But while Psions have the flexibility of augmentation and a power pool rather than slots, wizards have a much much larger selection of abilities overall. There are a few rather impressive powers that don't have a magical counterpart I should draw your attention to. They are Body Adjustment, Hustle, Psychic Reformation, and Telekinetic Thrust. There might be a few more but those are the only 'unique to psionics' powers I was planning to take. Although it should also be noted that the psionic version of Dimension Door has an augment that changes it to a move action. Please let me know if you have any concerns regarding psionics in general or my character in specific that I can address.

Shayuri · Mar 14, 2007

Generally, I can check in every day and post whenever it's incumbent on me to do so. Because of the circumstances of my work, most of my posting does take place during evenings and weekends, with quick, surreptitious posts during the day like this one.

Of the concepts I've pitched, the druid would probably need heavily customized items...wrapping as much functionality into a few things as I could, so he's not dripping with magical loot...but can still hold his own versus monsters of his CR.

Brother Allard · Mar 14, 2007

I should say that I also tend to check in a few times a day and can post, generally, a minimum of once per day, with occasional exceptions.

kinem · Mar 14, 2007

Void: It might be interesting to have a psionic character, and I am not completely unfamiliar with the rules. Tainted Scholar is out though. It seems overpowered, and more importantly, adding one whole subsystem (psionics) to the game for a PC is quite enough, and I don't want to add Taint as well. I would allow the Practiced Caster feat (up to +4 caster level, max is your HD) for a multiclassed caster.

On diplomacy: As an old school player, I don't like to rely on die rolls for social skills. That's not to say the roll won't matter, but the effect on an NPC will not be automatic. Instead, I'll take into account how well you rolled when judging whether the NPC takes your words in a favorable or unfavorable light, and will roleplay the NPC accordingly. If your actual words are not diplomatic though, the roll won't save you. If your real-life mental skills don't match those of your PC, tough. If your roll is bad though, it could still count against you

BTW, the DM will roll all dice.