Why Worldbuilding is Bad

Bedrockgames · May 4, 2018

Hussar said:
Yeah. I agree here. And, I'd point out, it follows my point rather well. OSR material draws very heavily on how the game was presented (largely pre-2e) before the world builders took things over. Material to be used, rather than read.

I think we might be conceiving world building differently in that case. To me the setting bloat, particularly the stuff you had in the 90s, seemed more a byproduct of a focus on storytelling than world building. The classic stuff had lots of world building (and you can look at a line like Harn which has a lot of that brevity and still creates a pretty deep world). I don't think world building is about filling books with multi-page entries for each place. In fact, a lot of those multipage style entries are long because of how they are written (the info can often be boiled down to much shorter entries).

Still, in general I take a don't throw the baby out with the bathwater approach. I think there is still a lot the 90s stuff did well, and am glad it's available. For example, setting material might have been wordy, but there is a lot of cool seating stuff to be found. And with certain kinds of books, the wordiness isn't as much of an issue as others. I think it is mainly when the books are meant to be used during play that you run into issues. An approach focused on brevity is very good for fast deployment at the table. On the other hand, I drew countless hours of play and inspiration from longer form books like the Van Richten Guidebooks. So personally, I kind of like how things are presently, where both options are available to me as a GM.

Maxperson · May 4, 2018

Imaculata said:
Those Monster Manuals are awesome. Especially Fiend Folio.

The Fiend Folio wasn't one of those monster manuals. The MMI, MMII and Fiend Folio just had monsters in them and were great. It was the MMIV and MMVI that did it. Maybe the MMIII, but I can't remember if that one was like that.

hawkeyefan · May 4, 2018

Hussar said:
Yeah. I agree here. And, I'd point out, it follows my point rather well. OSR material draws very heavily on how the game was presented (largely pre-2e) before the world builders took things over. Material to be used, rather than read.

Even in the releases where there is a free module, you still have about 90% of the material related to world building. There has not been a 50/50 split in material between stuff to read and stuff to use in decades.

So, no, it's not a given.

Are there a metric ton of modules out there for 5e? Yuppers, it's great. Fantastic stuff. Mostly DM's Guild stuff true, but, there's a buttload of stuff.

Trick is, so much of it is there to be read. As in, the DM will read it, most likely forget about 90% of it and then get on with building his or her own adventures, largely without any help from the publishers.

I said this earlier. To me, a perfect Monster Manual would have about 1/4 the monsters, but, every monster would come with 1-4 very short adventures/encounters, complete with maps, treasure, all the stuff you need to run that adventure. String together a bunch of those and you've got a complete adventure.

My absolute favorite 3e supplement was the Foul Locales series from Mystic Eye Games. Fantastic stuff. Each one focused on a certain type of location (urban, wilderness, whatever) and gave about 20 adventure locations you can plug and play. Great stuff. Used the heck out of those books. Heck, I STILL use them. Or, as another example, I used to callect the Dragonlance modules. The ones I got the most use out of were the last two (DL 15 and 16? is that the right number?). They were collections of 10 or 15 short adventures in Krynn that you could plug and play. FANTASTIC. I used the crap out of those.

THAT'S what I want. All this "10000 years ago, the ____ were a proud ___" stuff can go jump in the lake.

So there is a ton of material of the kind you like, but you want to actively get rid of the kind you don't like? Okay, cool.

Listen, I get it that there can easily be too much world lore or fluff included in many products. I just skip whatever I don't like. Problem solved. I don't think it needs to be eliminated. Because the truth is it's subjective, and the line will be different for everyone, and there needs to be at least some fluff to lend context to the mechanics. You mentioned an Otyugh in an earlier post....and there's a reason you know why an Otyugh would be an appropriate creature in a given situation, and that's because of the world lore.

So your line is drawn sooner than many others. Mine is honestly probably not drawn that much further along than yours. I get some inspiration from some of those lore bits, but I'm just as likely to get inspiration from any other source. I do think that many folks tend to overthink worldbuilding in actual play itself....how many days of travel from X to Y, and weather tables, and lists of imports and exports and all of that. But there are a lot of people who like that stuff.

Edited to add:
I meant to mention that one of my favorite products of all time is Uncaged: Faces of Sigil. It is almost entirely lore in the form of NPCs and their backstories. A stat block is given for each NPC, but that amounts to a fraction of the material. A couple of maps and other supplemental type of bits are also given. But the bulk of the book is by far just the story of these NPCs and their goals and motivations, and how those connect them to others.

I've been mining that book for story material for 20 years. It's an amazing source, honestly, and I'm curious if you're familiar with it and how you feel about it.

hawkeyefan · May 4, 2018

AbdulAlhazred said:
Yeah, I don't know. I have my own particular drum, so I tend not to try to project my own tastes too far. I don't really use adventures much, but I do like crunchy monster books, and rule books that add new fun material. Now, 5e obviously has core books and such which meet the criteria, in fact there's not really a LOT of fluff in the 5e core books. No more than you'd expect, certainly.

I think there have been some publishers however in the last few years, and maybe sometimes WotC is one of them, which go 'fluff crazy'. So, my eschewing of 5e material may be partly that, and just partly that I LIKE 4e fine and have a HUGE pile of 'stuff' to go with it that I will never exhaust.

Sure, WotC and certainly TSR could be lore crazy at times. And that's not unique to them, or to a specific edition.

But limiting the discussion to the 5E material published by WotC, I don't think the label applies. The core books are almost lore free, or lore neutral in the sense that they offer examples from all of their classic game worlds. The adventures are obviously Forgotten Realms specific, but that's easy to change, and an implied or default setting has almost always been the case in their previous material.

I have several of the published module books, and with the exception of Curse of Strahd, I've not run any of them as intended. I use them as a source for maps and NPCs and monsters and scenarios. They are very easily broken up into bits that can be repurposed and used in any way you like. To me, this is pretty much exactly what Hussar is saying he wants. Now, it is true that some of the pages in the books will be lost because they're devoted to the story of the adventure....but isn't that almost always true of game supplements?

Occasionally, you'll find a product that seems designed specifically for you, and you'll use all of it. But most of the time, you get one and you use a good chunk of it, and but there is still material you don't use. I've always accepted this as just the fact that they need to appeal to a wide audience.

Hussar · May 6, 2018

hawkeyefan said:
/snip

Edited to add:
I meant to mention that one of my favorite products of all time is Uncaged: Faces of Sigil. It is almost entirely lore in the form of NPCs and their backstories. A stat block is given for each NPC, but that amounts to a fraction of the material. A couple of maps and other supplemental type of bits are also given. But the bulk of the book is by far just the story of these NPCs and their goals and motivations, and how those connect them to others.

I've been mining that book for story material for 20 years. It's an amazing source, honestly, and I'm curious if you're familiar with it and how you feel about it.

Considering my very strong dislike for Planescape, no, I haven't looked at it. Sorry. I see Planescape as probably one of the biggest examples of "Material to Read rather than Play". Endless setting stuff, much of which you can't even adventure in (how, exactly, does one adventure in the Elemental Plane of Fire? The Blood War is pretty much unstoppable and pointless. Oh, you think Elminister is a Mary Sue? Howzabout a leader in your city that can kill gods?). I welcomed the 4e planes with open arms.

And, the reason I welcomed the 4e cosmology was because of the big shift in approach. The Astral Sea stuff is a place to ADVENTURE. It's not a place to read about and publish endless world building books about. I actually bought the two demon and devil books at the tail end of 3e (I can't remember their titles, and I'm too lazy to look it up). Read them. Enjoyed the reading and then realized that they were both utterly, utterly useless. I bought them used and only paid a couple of bucks for each, so, I wasn't too bothered by it, but, again, burned out totally by all the pointless setting stuff.

Hrm, a setting where the players are completely incapable of making any lasting changes, wrapped in a system that completely fails to address the central themes of the setting. No thanks. I'm not terribly interested in reading about settings. I want to play them.

Hussar · May 6, 2018

Look, I have a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. I am running an urban campaign soon. So, I went over to DM's Guild to find some good Thieves Guild material to help with prep. Best one I've found so far is Ebonclad. Looks great, right, a 200 (ish) page supplement on Thieves. Fantastic. Right up my alley.

Now, here's the writeup of the product:

Ebonclad is a thieves' guild campaign setting for the 5th edition of the world's greatest roleplaying game!

Inside Ebonclad you'll find:

170 pages of setting lore and history, accompanied by lavish illustrations and short stories to bring the setting to life.
7 adventures for character levels 1 - 4 GMs can use to introduce new players to the setting, or customize for use in their own campaigns.
Tons of character options including new backgrounds, subclasses, feats, equipment, poisons, and spells.
Tools for GMs to generate random citizens, valuables they may possess, the contents of their pockets or purses, and ways of determining how connected they are and how they'd react to witnessing crimes.
Dozens of new NPCs, from generic stat blocks for thieves in the Ebonclad guild or town guard, to specific characters living in the city.
A primer on thievery, for characters who live the life of crime.
Over 30 random street encounters with different customization options a GM can use.
New urban chase complications specific to the setting.
More than a dozen encounter area maps saved as PNG files to print or use online

So, of a 200 ish page book, 3/4 of it is "setting lore and history". THAT'S my beef. This is pretty much standard for most RPG books. It's actually pretty rare, outside of maybe specific modules, to find that ratio reversed or even close to even. Considering my group will be 9th level by the time I start this part of the campaign, that means that 90% of this book is useless to me before I even start. Whoopee, I might get some maps and some random street encounters. Nothing I can't get online already.

When people talk about "compromise", this is what I see. Virtually all the material that comes out is geared for the world builders, with drips and drops left over for those of us who aren't interested.

AbdulAlhazred · May 6, 2018

Hussar said:
Considering my very strong dislike for Planescape, no, I haven't looked at it. Sorry. I see Planescape as probably one of the biggest examples of "Material to Read rather than Play". Endless setting stuff, much of which you can't even adventure in (how, exactly, does one adventure in the Elemental Plane of Fire? The Blood War is pretty much unstoppable and pointless. Oh, you think Elminister is a Mary Sue? Howzabout a leader in your city that can kill gods?). I welcomed the 4e planes with open arms.

And, the reason I welcomed the 4e cosmology was because of the big shift in approach. The Astral Sea stuff is a place to ADVENTURE. It's not a place to read about and publish endless world building books about. I actually bought the two demon and devil books at the tail end of 3e (I can't remember their titles, and I'm too lazy to look it up). Read them. Enjoyed the reading and then realized that they were both utterly, utterly useless. I bought them used and only paid a couple of bucks for each, so, I wasn't too bothered by it, but, again, burned out totally by all the pointless setting stuff.

Hrm, a setting where the players are completely incapable of making any lasting changes, wrapped in a system that completely fails to address the central themes of the setting. No thanks. I'm not terribly interested in reading about settings. I want to play them.

Yeah, Planescape was crap in my book. Nothing but endless backstory and very little focus on anything really playable. At best a character is some tiny cipher in some vast and unstoppable, and totally pointless, history that goes on endlessly.

Contrast this with the 4e cosmology and all its associated materials. DRIPPING with adventure! I mean, every time I picked up and read one of these books my GM blood was up in 5 seconds with 'Wow I can USE THIS!' This is a big reason I simply never buy more stuff anymore. I have 30 books packed solid with this material, it will never give out. I could drive 10 campaigns, each with an awesome and well-thought-out set of conflicts and themes taking it from level 1-30 using that material. I would certainly have to come up with the specifics of the encounters and build things out, but there is this crazy well-thought-out background for it all. One that is both very open, and at the same time rich with conflict.

hawkeyefan · May 6, 2018

Hussar said:
Considering my very strong dislike for Planescape, no, I haven't looked at it. Sorry. I see Planescape as probably one of the biggest examples of "Material to Read rather than Play". Endless setting stuff, much of which you can't even adventure in (how, exactly, does one adventure in the Elemental Plane of Fire? The Blood War is pretty much unstoppable and pointless. Oh, you think Elminister is a Mary Sue? Howzabout a leader in your city that can kill gods?). I welcomed the 4e planes with open arms.

And, the reason I welcomed the 4e cosmology was because of the big shift in approach. The Astral Sea stuff is a place to ADVENTURE. It's not a place to read about and publish endless world building books about. I actually bought the two demon and devil books at the tail end of 3e (I can't remember their titles, and I'm too lazy to look it up). Read them. Enjoyed the reading and then realized that they were both utterly, utterly useless. I bought them used and only paid a couple of bucks for each, so, I wasn't too bothered by it, but, again, burned out totally by all the pointless setting stuff.

Hrm, a setting where the players are completely incapable of making any lasting changes, wrapped in a system that completely fails to address the central themes of the setting. No thanks. I'm not terribly interested in reading about settings. I want to play them.

Ha okay. I explained how one supplement has given me material I’ve used for 20 years and you ignore that and instead rant about a setting.

Obviously, you have strong feelings that won’t even really allow for discussion, so I’ll leave you to it.

Hussar · May 6, 2018

hawkeyefan said:
Ha okay. I explained how one supplement has given me material I’ve used for 20 years and you ignore that and instead rant about a setting.

Obviously, you have strong feelings that won’t even really allow for discussion, so I’ll leave you to it.

Sorry, I was just using your point as a springboard for my own. It's fantastic that you've gotten so much use out of a single product. Great.

I guess that my basic point is that usability, AFAIC, trumps all other considerations. It doesn't matter how inspiring, or how wonderfully written a supplement is to me. If I then have to spend hours taking that material and then writing up all the stuff I need to actually USE that material, it's completely useless to me.

Maxperson · May 6, 2018

Hussar said:
Considering my very strong dislike for Planescape, no, I haven't looked at it. Sorry. I see Planescape as probably one of the biggest examples of "Material to Read rather than Play". Endless setting stuff, much of which you can't even adventure in (how, exactly, does one adventure in the Elemental Plane of Fire?

With a bit of prep. It's not one large fire. There are solid portions to walk on, rivers, lakes and oceans of liquid fire, nodes of other elements like earth, air and water, and palaces. You can adventure there if you prepare for the heat and such.

The Blood War is pretty much unstoppable and pointless.

Since when has pointless meant that it shouldn't be in a game. You've just eliminated the band of misfits trying to stop the invading army, and who need the help of the PCs, and many other great ideas and situations.

Howzabout a leader in your city that can kill gods?

Assuming you're talking about Sigil, there's no such leader. The Lady of Pain doesn't lead the city in any way. She's more of a security system than anything else.

And, the reason I welcomed the 4e cosmology was because of the big shift in approach. The Astral Sea stuff is a place to ADVENTURE. It's not a place to read about and publish endless world building books about. I actually bought the two demon and devil books at the tail end of 3e (I can't remember their titles, and I'm too lazy to look it up). Read them. Enjoyed the reading and then realized that they were both utterly, utterly useless. I bought them used and only paid a couple of bucks for each, so, I wasn't too bothered by it, but, again, burned out totally by all the pointless setting stuff.

Whereas I ran many adventures on many planes and used those books. Maybe you just lack the imagination required to run adventures out on the traditional planes. That's perfectly fine. I have trouble running Oriental Adventures. Nobody can do every genre well

Hrm, a setting where the players are completely incapable of making any lasting changes, wrapped in a system that completely fails to address the central themes of the setting. No thanks. I'm not terribly interested in reading about settings. I want to play them.

There's no such setting put out by TSR or WotC. All of them are settings where the players are capable of making lasting changes. You just have to think on a much larger scale out on the planes.