Why Worldbuilding is Bad

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Look, I have a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. I am running an urban campaign soon. So, I went over to DM's Guild to find some good Thieves Guild material to help with prep. Best one I've found so far is Ebonclad. Looks great, right, a 200 (ish) page supplement on Thieves. Fantastic. Right up my alley.

Now, here's the writeup of the product:



So, of a 200 ish page book, 3/4 of it is "setting lore and history". THAT'S my beef. This is pretty much standard for most RPG books. It's actually pretty rare, outside of maybe specific modules, to find that ratio reversed or even close to even. Considering my group will be 9th level by the time I start this part of the campaign, that means that 90% of this book is useless to me before I even start. Whoopee, I might get some maps and some random street encounters. Nothing I can't get online already.

When people talk about "compromise", this is what I see. Virtually all the material that comes out is geared for the world builders, with drips and drops left over for those of us who aren't interested.

I opened two links to find the Ultimate Urban Fantasy. While it's modern and not traditional D&D, it doesn't seem to have an ounce of lore in it.

This book has everythign you need to take your D&D game to the modern era with new setting rules, backgrounds, race options, skills, and gear including:

18 New Background Options including rules on having and changing careers.
13 New Feats
New Racial Options for your all human games
Computers & Hacking: In depth rules for hackers in the modern world
Drugs & Addiction: Using and abusing drugs along with their cost, benefits, & drawbacks
Explosives & Crafting: Buying, making, & using explosives both military and improvised.
Guns & Modern Melee: Everything from pistols and shotguns to pepper spray and tazers
Vehicles: Stats for basic vehicles as well as rules for high speed chases and stunts.
Running games in a modern setting
Working around cellphones and other shortcuts
Keeping magic secret
Making a fantasy underworld
Intrepid Investigators: A pre-made modern fantasy setting
11 Urban NPCs: Including beat cops, mobster thugs, private eyes, club owners and more.
8 Urban Monsters: Including city gremlins, sewer lurkers, rabid wererats and more

And...

Urban Encounters: Shops and Houses

This book contains 97 pages of original encounters and mini-dungeons set within shops and houses of all sorts. The settings within these pages will take you from the terrifying Vampire's Manse to the fully automated Home of the Future, all the way back around to the vicious Gambling Den and a maddening, saddening Possessed Orphanage. Each entry in the book outlines a building with between 4 and 24 rooms, with each room furthering a self-contained story that will play out as adventurers explore and interact with the denizens within. Every house and shop also includes a map and a set of rumors to help lead the party to the adventure.

This book is a perfect way to fill out a D&D session, adding a bit of extra adventure when needed. If your table loves to open every door, barter with every shopkeep and take shelter in every rural barn, these encounters will add a little bit of excitement to their exploration. The adventures within can also easily be used as a jumping off point for adventure, with open-ended story hooks that can easily extend to full-length campaigns as you follow up on the threads generated within each encounter. With 32 original full length encounters, there's something for every table and every level.

So it would seem that it's pretty easy to find crunch without much in the way of lore if you want to look for it.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

With a bit of prep. It's not one large fire. There are solid portions to walk on, rivers, lakes and oceans of liquid fire, nodes of other elements like earth, air and water, and palaces. You can adventure there if you prepare for the heat and such.
Right, but 4e's Elemental Chaos simply improved on this drastically in terms of 'adventurability'. All the elements exist in the EC, as well as an open-ended list of 'domains'. You can have a region of pure fire if you want, those exist, as well as regions of fire+ice (and the resulting fogs and steams I would assume). Its an infinite place, so anything must exist somewhere.

I mean, I'm sure you could put the same things in the old GW version of the inner planes, it just wasn't how it was envisaged. You kind of had to adulterate the concept, whereas the WA version does it naturally.

Since when has pointless meant that it shouldn't be in a game. You've just eliminated the band of misfits trying to stop the invading army, and who need the help of the PCs, and many other great ideas and situations.
I think when he says pointless he means stuff that will never really matter and probably won't even ever come up. Things that literally are just in the book and you read them, but they never show at the table at all.

Assuming you're talking about Sigil, there's no such leader. The Lady of Pain doesn't lead the city in any way. She's more of a security system than anything else.
but she is quite a Mary Sue nonetheless. I always found Sigil to be a bit silly myself, though I admit that it at least has gaming potential. In some sense it seemed kind of TOO gamist. Its interesting that this is one of the few locations in GW that is directly reproduced with almost no changes in 4e WA.

Whereas I ran many adventures on many planes and used those books. Maybe you just lack the imagination required to run adventures out on the traditional planes. That's perfectly fine. I have trouble running Oriental Adventures. Nobody can do every genre well

There's no such setting put out by TSR or WotC. All of them are settings where the players are capable of making lasting changes. You just have to think on a much larger scale out on the planes.

I disagree about the Planescape GW. Its very concept is something that is inevitable, inexorable, has existed forever, and has a structure, purpose, and function entirely beyond even the gods who seem to live on it as basically vermin. Obviously you can change that, but in any larger sense, as written, it is vastly beyond what any PC can affect.

The World Axis of 4e OTOH is quite the opposite. The struggle between the order of the gods and the chaos of the primordials is fundamental, but approachable. The stakes are human and comprehensible, and a small band of heroes could easily be the most influential actors in the entire grand scheme, the lynchpins of the defense/destruction of the whole multiverse, or at least the world itself.

And its a stage on which everything is not set. While the GW is vast and you could certainly invent some niche to cram anything into, the WA is fundamentally open. There's always room for another Astral Dominion or Elemental Realm in there. 4e's MotP starts out with a whole discussion of how to USE the material in play, and quite a lot of it is directly usable without further preparation, up to a point. Its a masterful blend of possibility, color, and crunch.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Right, but 4e's Elemental Chaos simply improved on this drastically in terms of 'adventurability'. All the elements exist in the EC, as well as an open-ended list of 'domains'. You can have a region of pure fire if you want, those exist, as well as regions of fire+ice (and the resulting fogs and steams I would assume). Its an infinite place, so anything must exist somewhere.

I mean, I'm sure you could put the same things in the old GW version of the inner planes, it just wasn't how it was envisaged. You kind of had to adulterate the concept, whereas the WA version does it naturally.

Yeah. There are a number of ways to do the planes and the elemental chaos I think is a good one. I like the Great Wheel too much to alter the outer planes, but I've been toying with the idea of making the inner planes one big elemental chaos plane.

I think when he says pointless he means stuff that will never really matter and probably won't even ever come up. Things that literally are just in the book and you read them, but they never show at the table at all.

That misses the point, though. That stuff isn't there to always come up. It's there to come up as needed. When the players are in a region with that kind of lore, some NPCs will draw on the lore when appropriate, so some of it always gets used. Most doesn't, but the next time the PCs or another set of PCs in another campaign comes through, some other piece of lore comes out. It adds a lot to the game and my players really enjoy when they encounter things like this.

Another thing to consider is that when WotC or TSR writes 100 pieces of fluff for an area, even if I use 1, you use one, [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] uses 0, we are not all that will be using it. With millions of players, each and every piece of fluff that they write will see plenty of use, so it's not pointless to the company to include it.

but she is quite a Mary Sue nonetheless. I always found Sigil to be a bit silly myself, though I admit that it at least has gaming potential. In some sense it seemed kind of TOO gamist. Its interesting that this is one of the few locations in GW that is directly reproduced with almost no changes in 4e WA.

Doesn't a Mary Sue need to be a protagonist or antagonist? She's neither. All she is, is fluff. If the PCs ever see her, they are dead or imprisoned forever. She's no different than saying that Sigil is a tire with the city built on the inside.

I disagree about the Planescape GW. Its very concept is something that is inevitable, inexorable, has existed forever, and has a structure, purpose, and function entirely beyond even the gods who seem to live on it as basically vermin. Obviously you can change that, but in any larger sense, as written, it is vastly beyond what any PC can affect.

Part of planescape is that one of the layers of an outer plane goes missing. Belief has altered it so that it shifts from one plane to another plane, altering the landscape of the outer planes. Belief is something the PCs can shape through their actions. That's why I said it has to be on a grand scale for the PCs to affect things, but they can do it. Starting another faction. Reviving or eliminating gods through belief. Becoming gods or even something greater through the manipulation of belief. And more. There's quite a bit they can do to alter things in the out planes. It just takes longer and more effort to accomplish than it would on a prime world.

The World Axis of 4e OTOH is quite the opposite. The struggle between the order of the gods and the chaos of the primordials is fundamental, but approachable. The stakes are human and comprehensible, and a small band of heroes could easily be the most influential actors in the entire grand scheme, the lynchpins of the defense/destruction of the whole multiverse, or at least the world itself.

And its a stage on which everything is not set. While the GW is vast and you could certainly invent some niche to cram anything into, the WA is fundamentally open. There's always room for another Astral Dominion or Elemental Realm in there. 4e's MotP starts out with a whole discussion of how to USE the material in play, and quite a lot of it is directly usable without further preparation, up to a point. Its a masterful blend of possibility, color, and crunch.

That's cool, too. :)
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
There is no functional difference in the planes as presented in Planescape and the planes as presented in 4E. Both are designed with the intention that they be locations for the PCs to actually go to at much lower level and not be reserved for only the hughestlevel characters.
 

Hussar

Legend
Thanks for that second link [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]. Will definitely check that out. The first one, not so much since I don't do modern.

But this point,

Another thing to consider is that when WotC or TSR writes 100 pieces of fluff for an area, even if I use 1, you use one, @Hussar uses 0, we are not all that will be using it. With millions of players, each and every piece of fluff that they write will see plenty of use, so it's not pointless to the company to include it.

Means that 99% of everything WotC or TSR writes is not getting used at any given table. Isn't that a huge waste of time? For me, this is thre reason that I rarely buy WotC books. Other than core, all I've bought of 5e is Xanathar's, and even then, it was the electronic form for Fantasy Grounds - something I'm going to get considerable use out of.

Like I said, books are meant to be used, not read. Well, game books that is (ahem).
 

There is no functional difference in the planes as presented in Planescape and the planes as presented in 4E. Both are designed with the intention that they be locations for the PCs to actually go to at much lower level and not be reserved for only the hughestlevel characters.

There seems to be a difference in intent though. 4e's planes were designed to focus on adventure. The whole cosmology is a ready-built epic conflict. The GW... I have no idea what the heck the concept was!
 

pemerton

Legend
You mentioned an Otyugh in an earlier post....and there's a reason you know why an Otyugh would be an appropriate creature in a given situation, and that's because of the world lore.
I don't remember ever having used an otyugh in 30-odd years of GMing. But I had a look at the flavour text in my AD&D and 4e MMs:

AD&D MM said:
These weird monsters are omnivorous scavengers, not at all hesitant about adding a bit of fresh meat to their diet of dung, offal, and carrion. They hate direct sunlight or bright light, so they are often found underground in most cases. Usually (90%) only a single individual is encountered, for otyugh typically live in partnership with other subterranean monsters. The otyugh will dwell in a truce state with other powerful monsters in order to scavenge droppings and other leavings. In most cases otyugh live in pliles of dung and rubbish, and thrive there. . . .

These monsters have no interest whatsoever in treasure as humans know it, but their partners may, occasionally making the guarding of treasure they value a condition of allowing otyugh to dwell in semi-symbiosis with them.
4e MM said:
This tentacled scavenger feeds on carrion and lurks under mounds of filth and refuse. . . .

Some intelligent monsters capture otyughs and use them as guardians, but otyughs are best used as living garbage disposals. Otyughs often infest the sewer systems of large cities, lurking in the darkest and most stagnant portions. . . .

Groups of otyughs do not cooperate in any way, and an unfortunate adventurer caught between several otyughs is likely to be dragged from one to the other several times as the monsters fight for their prize.
Are you characterising this as worldbuilding?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Thanks for that second link [MENTION=23751]Maxperson[/MENTION]. Will definitely check that out. The first one, not so much since I don't do modern.

Sure, and I really didn't look that hard. There's probably a lot more like that on the DM Guild site, because a lot of people like crunch over fluff.

But this point,

Means that 99% of everything WotC or TSR writes is not getting used at any given table. Isn't that a huge waste of time? For me, this is thre reason that I rarely buy WotC books. Other than core, all I've bought of 5e is Xanathar's, and even then, it was the electronic form for Fantasy Grounds - something I'm going to get considerable use out of.

Like I said, books are meant to be used, not read. Well, game books that is (ahem).

It wasn't really a point. I was describing an extreme and showing how even at that extreme, it will still be useful to a lot of people. I personally don't think that most of the products are that extreme. I find many pieces useful in most products. Also, while you don't buy this sort of product, I don't buy the ones you described earlier. The Monster Manuals that were mostly pages of encounters built for the monsters inside of them were quickly put back on the shelf by me. We all have criteria where we will and won't buy a product. WotC figures that into their product design.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
There seems to be a difference in intent though. 4e's planes were designed to focus on adventure. The whole cosmology is a ready-built epic conflict. The GW... I have no idea what the heck the concept was!

Well the Great Wheel cosmology predates Planescape, so I don’t know if its conception is relevant to my point. Planescape took that concept and made it accessible. With a major emphasis being accessibility from the very start, with Level 1 PCs. Prior to that, the planes seemed intended to be stomping grounds for high level characters. Planescape did away with that...how does this not fit with what you’re saying?

I wouldn’t say every product with the Planescape logo is of equal quality, but the original boxed swt and many of the supplements are great. They do exactly what you’re describing with 4E’s World Axis cosmology. I didn’t mind 4E’s approach, really, and I don’t even see them being all that different. The only difference when you boil it down is the “geography” of the planes. Which doesn’t really matter all that much in how you use these locations in a game.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
I don't remember ever having used an otyugh in 30-odd years of GMing. But I had a look at the flavour text in my AD&D and 4e MMs:


Are you characterising this as worldbuilding?

Well, I was speaking to Hussar about balancing fluff and crunch, and how one is meaningless without the other. He made a comment about designing encounters, and said something along the lines of “there’s a refuse pit....so I’ll have an Otyugh”. So my comment was about why he knew to use an Otyugh, a creature that I don’t believe has any mythological origin, and is purely a creation of D&D (I could of course be wrong, but I don’t think I am).

He knew because the creature was designed to explain where all the refuse and waste from dungeon denizens went. It’s a living toilet. That is its place in the fictional world. So yes, I’d call this worldbuilding. Not of the kind the GM or the players engage in as part of play, but of the kind a specific GM (likely Gygax, but maybe Arneson of Kuntz or one of the other OG crew) came up with to explain how his world worked.

Hussar would prefer this type of material be kept to a minimum. And that’s fine, that’s his preference. But much of it is inseperable from the game. The lore...or fluff or worldbuilding....is what goves context to things. This is why it’s so prevalent in game books, and why it’s not likely to go away.
 

Remove ads

Top