Revisiting Leadership.

Rae ArdGaoth said:

Bront's method looks complicated, what with all the equations. I know it's really not, but it looks... daunting. I prefer IcyCool's method, it's pretty simple. #1 and #3 are already in the rules, I believe, and #2 and #4 are very easy ways to calculate cohort XP. There's still no advantage for keeping a cohort rather than replacing him, but it does something for the disadvantages.

It would also take away one of the reasons to swap out a cohort. I think that's a good side effect.

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To offer a dissenting opinion...

The general consensus seems to be that Leadership is too nerfed. I'm not sure I agree, I think Leadership in it's original form is actually one of the most powerful feats in the game. You'd almost be a fool not to take it. IMC, I don't allow Leadership as a feat. If I want my PCs to have a cohort, they get one from me the DM, under my terms, if you know what I mean.

Another thought: Allowing Leadership also allows players to have more than the allotted 3 character limit (albeit at a level disadvantage, and the extra characters come attached to a PC).

I'm not convinced that Leadership should be allowed at all in LEW.

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Icycool's method is simple, but suddently your follower has no penalties to dying, and it allows for crafting to be abused, both of which are things that shouldn't be allowed.
While mine may look complicated, it's not that much of a departure from the standard SRD rule.

Unfairly keeping a cohort down is one thing, but I think his susgestion does the exact oposite.

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As to your other comments, one of the things my character has been pondering is starting his own Freefolk caravan. Mostly for flavor, but it sounds like fun and something to add to LEW. He'd take the leadership feat. On top of that, he's met 2-3 people who would be willing to follow him as cohorts, though only one who's had the opertunity and willingness to do so.

Back when this was agreed to, I wasn't a judge, but I would have voted No to the 25 point rule. I like the ability to decline the cohort by a GM, but I think that 25 points is too limiting when the PCs are 30 points.

I can understand not wanting to let the leadership feat into the game, but there are some characters it makes sense for, and so far, Rinaldo has been the only one to take it (and he has his reasons). Vanitri might be the second, depending on how it changes, but he can't do justice to his cohort with a 25 point build, and bringing along someone who's likely to die quickly just doesn't seem like fun to me.

Bront is correct that his method is similar in math to the by-the-book method. However, what he may not realise is that his method still never allows the cohort to catch up if she falls behind. Ever.

Here's a mathematically simple method that is so elegant that the designers use it for everything except (mysteriously) cohorts--just give the cohort an amount of XP equal to what a PC of her level would gain, capped at PC level -2. This will be slightly more XP than the PC gains, allowing a fallen cohort to eventually catch up.

Admittedly, it isn't as simple as Icycool's method, but it is more fair, in general, I think.

I'll admit that the method I tossed out there was pretty much off the top of my head.

I'd like to address a couple of points:

1. "It gives no penalty for death" - Well, aside from the expense of getting raised and remaining at the lowered level until the PC levels, then yes, this is correct. How much of an issue would this be?

2. "It is open to abuse of the crafting rules" - Possibly, I admittedly didn't look very closely at it, but could you give some examples of how it could be abused? At first glance, it looks like the main benefit would be that the PC gets access to the pool of XP earlier than he might if the cohort were earning it over time.

3. "Cohorts are gimped at 25 point but" - For a normal game, I'd probably say you are very correct. But for Living EnWorld, where you could potentially have PC's that are of an equal or lower level than the cohort in the party, a non "gimped" cohort means that one PC's torch bearer could be easily stealing the spotlight from a legitimate PC. I'd call that a bad thing.

Edit - RA's method seems reasonable to me, but couldn't it be just as easily "abused" as far as xp expenditures go? And how much of an issue is that?

IcyCool said:

2. "It is open to abuse of the crafting rules" - Possibly, I admittedly didn't look very closely at it, but could you give some examples of how it could be abused?

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If his XP resets to halfway to next level, he basicly gets some od thousands of XPs to spend on crafting an item, and the XP mysteriously reappear when the PC levels (because the Cohort levels).

IcyCool said:

3. "Cohorts are gimped at 25 point but" - For a normal game, I'd probably say you are very correct. But for Living EnWorld, where you could potentially have PC's that are of an equal or lower level than the cohort in the party, a non "gimped" cohort means that one PC's torch bearer could be easily stealing the spotlight from a legitimate PC. I'd call that a bad thing.

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That's where either A) The GM doesn't allow the Cohort, B) The GM doesn't allow the low level player, or C) The GM doesn't allow the high level player.

You need a level desparity of 3 for the 28 point cohort to outshine a PC, and even than, it's arguable. A 25 point Cohort can still outshine a PC who's 4 levels lower than the PC with leadership, and at a 3-4 level disparity, you're already at a significant PC disparity.

I'm sorry, but saying my 7th level Cohort has to suck becaue he might outshine a 6th level PC when I'm 9th isn't realy something that strikes me as an issue we need to worry about.

IcyCool said:

1. "It gives no penalty for death" - Well, aside from the expense of getting raised and remaining at the lowered level until the PC levels, then yes, this is correct. How much of an issue would this be?

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For having seen most of the death of LEW (Ashnar twice, Nurlan, Opale, Zack...) the ressurection is done at the same moment you recieve XP (or should I say, getting someone ressurected give such a breack into teh action of the adventure that you recieve XP, or both si done at the end) and generally, an encounter that kill people gives lot of XP, most of time, enough to raise in level. Virtually, most of the time, the cohort will not suffer form his level lose as he will raise in level just after his ressurection.

IcyCool said:

2. "It is open to abuse of the crafting rules" - Possibly, I admittedly didn't look very closely at it, but could you give some examples of how it could be abused?

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You attract character at XP at half what it need for next level... great, I spend that half to create item, tells my cohort to go away and attract a new.

For (2), IcyCool, I'd say that just giving the cohort a free half a level of XP for crafting every level (without falling behind) is already exploitative--it is hard to use more than that much XP (to get an idea, when the cohort first appears at level 6, this is 2000 XP, which means the cohort can craft 50,000 GP worth of items before running out. That seems unlikely! And then when the PC levels, the cohort gets all the XP back too)

That said, in the corner case where you would possibly be able to use more XP than your method already gives, here's an idea. Now, granted, this is incredibly exploitative and requires a merciless character who cares nothing for her cohort. Given that I present you:

Infinite Money until you run out of Craft Points or Time (or--Jenny, you're a Troglodyte?)

Step 1--character is incredibly close to leveling up and cohort still has half her level in XP. She spends this all on crafting and sells the items for the highest profit possible (to other PCs, to Rinaldo's shop, get your own shop, etc). She's making 50,000 or more GP worth of items here. Assume you can turn X GP of profit (if you sold it all for full price, that would be 25,000 GP of profit) where X is greater than 1000 GP. Now kill the cohort. Reincarnate her for 1000 GP. As per reincarnate, she comes back with half as much as she needs to reach her old level. Spend that all on magic items. Then sell them. Then kill her. Repeat until the cohort is so deleveled that she is in danger of losing the crafting feat. Now use 1 GM credit to level up the PC. Zoom! The cohort immediately gains back all the lost XP and goes back to her usual place.

Bront said:

That's where either A) The GM doesn't allow the Cohort, B) The GM doesn't allow the low level player, or C) The GM doesn't allow the high level player.

You need a level desparity of 3 for the 28 point cohort to outshine a PC, and even than, it's arguable. A 25 point Cohort can still outshine a PC who's 4 levels lower than the PC with leadership, and at a 3-4 level disparity, you're already at a significant PC disparity.

I'm sorry, but saying my 7th level Cohort has to suck becaue he might outshine a 6th level PC when I'm 9th isn't realy something that strikes me as an issue we need to worry about.

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I agree--if this is an issue, don't allow the cohort on that adventure. As far as I've seen, Hogarth (LEW's only cohort) has been an amazing help in my adventure who had plenty of spotlight time, including a noble sacrifice, and not one of the other players would begrudge him that because they are glad for the help.

Rystil Arden said:

Step 1--character is incredibly close to leveling up and cohort still has half her level in XP. She spends this all on crafting and sells the items for the highest profit possible (to other PCs, to Rinaldo's shop, get your own shop, etc). She's making 50,000 or more GP worth of items here. Assume you can turn X GP of profit (if you sold it all for full price, that would be 25,000 GP of profit) where X is greater than 1000 GP. Now kill the cohort. Reincarnate her for 1000 GP. As per reincarnate, she comes back with half as much as she needs to reach her old level. Spend that all on magic items. Then sell them. Then kill her. Repeat until the cohort is so deleveled that she is in danger of losing the crafting feat. Now use 1 GM credit to level up the PC. Zoom! The cohort immediately gains back all the lost XP and goes back to her usual place.

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Twisted, the character will become rich, but will gain a -2 to his leadership score for causing the death of his cohort. But that's a great abuse of the feat.

Bront said:

If his XP resets to halfway to next level, he basicly gets some od thousands of XPs to spend on crafting an item, and the XP mysteriously reappear when the PC levels (because the Cohort levels).

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True, but a "normal" cohort would be constantly gaining xp as well, which could be spent. However I see your point, my point about would let the cohort both spend xp AND level. Perhaps that is too much. Although with a 25 point buy cohort ...

Bront said:

I'm sorry, but saying my 7th level Cohort has to suck becaue he might outshine a 6th level PC when I'm 9th isn't realy something that strikes me as an issue we need to worry about.

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I'm not sure I agree with your numbers, but I will say this: If someone's PC has to stay at the Inn because your torch boy is coming along, that is, in my opinion, unacceptable. Perhaps that is not a popular or commonly held opinion in LEW.

To put a bit of perspective on it, I don't like cohorts, never have. I've seen them allow one player to eat up far too much of the spotlight. Leadership is also usually a no-brainer feat (it's that good). For those reasons I really don't allow it anymore.

Velmont said:

For having seen most of the death of LEW (Ashnar twice, Nurlan, Opale, Zack...) the ressurection is done at the same moment you recieve XP (or should I say, getting someone ressurected give such a breack into teh action of the adventure that you recieve XP, or both si done at the end) and generally, an encounter that kill people gives lot of XP, most of time, enough to raise in level. Virtually, most of the time, the cohort will not suffer form his level lose as he will raise in level just after his ressurection.

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So from your experience, the PC deaths in LEW have had little penalty? (For what it is worth, I'll add that Gorefoot's death was similar to your experiences, in that he gained enough xp to make up the level loss instantly.)

Velmont said:

You attract character at XP at half what it need for next level... great, I spend that half to create item, tells my cohort to go away and attract a new.

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Yeah, the more I look at that, the more I like RA's method.