Revisiting Leadership.

IcyCool · May 21, 2007

Rystil Arden said:
It's also true that I've seen greedy casters go for the 18 in a 25 PB scheme, with some terribly boring character like--8 11 14 18 8 8. It's easier to do that for a cohort, where you typically don't care as much for the charisma because she's on the sidelines or the strength if the PC can carry spare stuff. Since they could make a cohort with an 18 anyway in 25 PB, I don't see why we should limit them in 30 PB. They'll wind up with something like 8 14 14 18 10 8 or 8 12 16 18 8 8.

I'd just like to point out that stats aren't what makes a character interesting or boring. YMMV, of course.

Rystil Arden · May 21, 2007

IcyCool said:
I'd just like to point out that stats aren't what makes a character interesting or boring. YMMV, of course.

I think that they do. High stats aren't what makes a character interesting though--varied stats to reflect the personality are (I think my Telepath who wasted tons of points on Charisma is more interesting than my Shaper who just dumped it and got higher Int, for instance). I think 8 11 14 18 8 8 is a boring character because it is a cookie cutter, not because most of the stats are low. Of course, stats aren't the only thing, but they are a factor, unless the player is one of those RP-and-ignore-the-stats people who plays eloquent geniuses with 8 Int and Cha.

SlagMortar · May 21, 2007

Rystil said:
It's also true that I've seen greedy casters go for the 18 in a 25 PB scheme, with some terribly boring character like--8 11 14 18 8 8. It's easier to do that for a cohort, where you typically don't care as much for the charisma because she's on the sidelines or the strength if the PC can carry spare stuff.

I totally agree that it is easier for a cohort. That's why I would like to limit it. As things currently stand, I do not think it is more likely for a cohort wizard to have an 18 intelligence than it is for a PC wizard to have an 18 intelligence. If we give cohorts 28 or 30 point buy, then I think it becomes more likely for the cohort to have 18 intelligence. If a PC wants to be really focused, I think they should be better at the focus than an equal level cohort.

Rystil said:
Since they could make a cohort with an 18 anyway in 25 PB, I don't see why we should limit them in 30 PB. They'll wind up with something like 8 14 14 18 10 8 or 8 12 16 18 8 8.

But, as you've argued, the character will be less survivable. I'm sort of confused by this. Is the point of increasing the point buy to make cohorts more survivable, or is it to make them more flavorful, or is it to make them more powerful, or is it to make them all three? With 25 point buy, you can build a wizard with decent survivability, and decent flavor: 8 points to casting stat, 6 points to Dex, 6 points to Con, and 5 points to spend on the other 3 stats - enough to make one relatively high, or to make all average. If you want a more unusual array, only put 6 points in the casting stat.
If the purpose of increasing point buy is to take a character like:
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 13
and make it
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 17, Wis 8, Cha 13
then I don't think we should increase the point buy.

However, if the purpose of increasing the point buy is to take the same character:
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 13
and make it
Str 8, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 8, Cha 14
in order to increase survivability and allow fleshing out the character a bit more, then I am in favor of it.

Rystil said:
But what if one of the other PCs is a really low level character of exactly the same class as the cohort? Well then the GM can choose not to allow the cohort that time--the guy hiring at the inn could even say "Hey, we don't need two fledgling Wizards on this adventure".

I think it makes sense to avoid that option whenever possible, and I think it is workable to have a cohort and a lower level character of the same class in the same adventure. Why would Batman say, "Robin, you sit this one out so that I can go on an adventure with this entirely new person I just met." It can work, but there are better options in my opinion.

Rystil said:
I think the overspecialised cohort is actually better for the spotlight problem, particularly the cohort that spends 100% of points on casting stat and then Con/Dex for survival. Your opinion may vary, of course.

This I do disagree with. The extra stat points in "unimportant" attributes don't really contribute much spotlight time in my opinion.

Rystil Arden · May 21, 2007

This I do disagree with. The extra stat points in "unimportant" attributes don't really contribute much spotlight time in my opinion.

Hmm...based on your other comments, I'm thinking you probably mainly just care about combat for spotlight? IMO, combat is combat, and everyone plays their part. Combat is only one part of the adventure--heck, I purposely built my first character such that she is pretty much worthless at combat but good at social things. When I think of spotlight, I include the whole gamut, and in that sense, the cohort with nothing but the casting stat and survival stats is just going to be sitting around in the background for everything else. This is good, though, as spotlight hogging in other areas of the adventure is much more obvious and annoying than in combat (in my opinion). I don't think I've ever seen an instance of spotlight hogging in combat that made anyone unhappy--everyone is usually happy to see the enemies fall and high-five each other.

SlagMortar · May 21, 2007

Not just combat, but I am mostly thinking about places where game mechanics play a major role - traps, climb/balance/jump obstacles, needing the right utility spell.

I fully agree that direct challenges are only part of the adventure. They seem to take up a lot of the time in play by post though. In my experience with play by post, the characters with the most non-combat spotlight time have usually been the player that posts the most, regardless of stats or mechanics.

I would much rather play with another PC's cohort if the cohort is interesting, has a distinct personality, and contributes to out of combat discussions, rather than one that you forget is there until combat starts. The bland character builds we've been talking about could very accurately describe a super smart, absent-minded wizard who always makes people mad by saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. Such a character would be well played to often chime in during discussions with an odd funny comment that completely ruins the master negotiator's scheme, thus stealing the spotlight. 8 int, wis, and cha does not necessarily mean silent.

Rystil Arden · May 21, 2007

well played to often chime in during discussions with an odd funny comment that completely ruins the master negotiator's scheme, thus stealing the spotlight.

I've never seen a cohort do this--however, as an oft-times player of the "master negotiator", other PCs do this just about every time anyway, and it is admittedly frustrating. Usually cohorts are pretty quiet, I think.

SlagMortar · May 21, 2007

I've never seen a cohort do this--however, as an oft-times player of the "master negotiator", other PCs do this just about every time anyway, and it is admittedly frustrating. Usually cohorts are pretty quiet, I think.

Agreed. I've played the "master negotiator" before too, with better results sometimes than other times, and I've admittedly played the foil as well probably more often than I should have.

I'm not worried about cohorts doing that in particular. I'm just saying that stealing spot light time outside of overcoming direct challenges doesn't really have anything to do with the cohort's point buy. Even 25 point buy, you can still make a "master negotiator" cohort that does nothing but inspire courage during combat and it is still worth more than the price of a feat.
For example, I could play Planus up to Level 7, retire him, and create a level 6 fighter (or cleric) with 10 charisma and the personality of a board and a level 4 human bard cohort (30 oint buy: Str 8, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 18 or 25 point buy: Str 9, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16), max ranks in all social skills and feats: negotiator, persuasive, and skill focus (Diplomacy). The cohort would be one of the best face characters in LEW (though sense motive is a bit lacking), and still contribute more than 1 feat worth of combat effectiveness to the level 6 fighter, without dying very easily thanks to the 16 Con. Played well, I think this could actually be an interesting and enjoyable combination for the entire party. The 25 point buy doesn't prohibit this combination, but it does make it so that a survivable cohort is not going to have an 18 charisma where as a survivable bard PC might, and will have that extra little edge over the cohort.

Rystil Arden · May 21, 2007

SlagMortar said:
Agreed. I've played the "master negotiator" before too, with better results sometimes than other times, and I've admittedly played the foil as well probably more often than I should have.

I'm not worried about cohorts doing that in particular. I'm just saying that stealing spot light time outside of overcoming direct challenges doesn't really have anything to do with the cohort's point buy. Even 25 point buy, you can still make a "master negotiator" cohort that does nothing but inspire courage during combat and it is still worth more than the price of a feat.
For example, I could play Planus up to Level 7, retire him, and create a level 6 fighter (or cleric) with 10 charisma and the personality of a board and a level 4 human bard cohort (30 oint buy: Str 8, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 18 or 25 point buy: Str 9, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 16), max ranks in all social skills and feats: negotiator, persuasive, and skill focus (Diplomacy). The cohort would be one of the best face characters in LEW (though sense motive is a bit lacking), and still contribute more than 1 feat worth of combat effectiveness to the level 6 fighter, without dying very easily thanks to the 16 Con. Played well, I think this could actually be an interesting and enjoyable combination for the entire party. The 25 point buy doesn't prohibit this combination, but it does make it so that a survivable cohort is not going to have an 18 charisma where as a survivable bard PC might, and will have that extra little edge over the cohort.

And see, I don't think the 18 is going to make a difference, really. I wouldn't want that 23 Point Buy (yup, you forgot to spend two points on the one with the 16!) Bard cohort in a game with Lasair, my 4th-level Telepath (especially if he's a half-elf and you ditch Persuasive), since Lasair has put a subtantial investment into having +18 Diplomacy at level 4, and the Bard is going to have +21 (+23 if Half-Elf). The 18 does barely anything for the Bard, really--because it costs 8 points, the 18 Cha Bard at 30 PB is going to have 3 fewer points to spend elsewhere than the 25 PB Bard with 16. And it's just another +1.

I guess what I'm saying is--if the cohort is going to upstage a PC, she'll probably do it regardless of the PB. Because 18s are overcosted in the standard PB system, using 18s will actually weaken the cohort overall, but it could still be nice for cohorts with that concept.

I guess in summary--the difference between 16 and 18 in a casting stat is not really all that noticable compared to the price (5% chance per casting a DC spell that it makes a difference, and starting at level 7, it's one bonus spell, though you likely have a +2 item by then anyway). Thus, it only really matters for a concept--and that concept may be important.

Concrete example--I know because Vanitri leveled to 6 in one of my adventures that he was thinking of taking Leadership and bringing along an NPC friend from that adventure, though he eventually declined to take the feat due to the draconian restrictions we have on it here in LEW. The NPC is (imo, since I made her) an entertaining, well-rounded personality, but much of it is focused around the fact that the NPC has 19 Int (she's the Hermionesque book-smartest student type). Even with contemplating rearranging her other stats to fit 25 PB (since I made her, like most of my NPCs that aren't throwaway goons, using 30 PB), the 18 had to stay, or else her character makes no sense. But in the end, she would be weaker for it overall than if she had just taken the 16 and dealt out the stat points somewhere else (or taken 17 and counted on the fact that cohorts start at level 4 and get a stat raise).

Rae ArdGaoth · May 21, 2007

IcyCool said:
Nice, it lets the people who want cohorts to be powerhouses get their cake, and the people who don't like having a 3 character limit get to eat it.

Er... wait.

I think allowing a cohort at 30 PB is definitely a mistake, and allowing a cohort at 28 PB is probably a mistake. At 30 PB, you can have up to 6 characters (provided 3 of them are lvl 6 or above)! Granted, they have to adventure in pairs, but that just means twice the fun, right?

Ha! You're right, it certainly allows the Player to have more than 3 characters. That's my big beef with Leadership in LEW: it's a circumvention of the 3 character limit. Personally, I'd probably vote the feat away, but since it's already a rule, and there's so much support for it, I don't think it's going away, so I want to make it as fair and fun as possible.

IcyCool said:
I'd just like to point out that stats aren't what makes a character interesting or boring. YMMV, of course.

I agree with Icycool on stats. Stats don't define the character, the player does. To an extent, the stats have an influence, and ultimately the DM can say to the player that he's out of line, but I think the character concept and the player's RPing skills go way beyond whatever the stats may say.

That being said, I support the 10 point per ability limit. Cohorts should be worse than PCs of the same level. They'll have less treasure (as RA pointed out), and I think they should have less distinctive stats. The purpose of the PB increase is to improve survivability, not make the cohort distinctively intelligent or strong or... whatever.

SlagMortar · May 22, 2007

Rystil said:
And see, I don't think the 18 is going to make a difference, really. I wouldn't want that 23 Point Buy (yup, you forgot to spend two points on the one with the 16!) Bard cohort in a game with Lasair, my 4th-level Telepath (especially if he's a half-elf and you ditch Persuasive), since Lasair has put a subtantial investment into having +18 Diplomacy at level 4, and the Bard is going to have +21 (+23 if Half-Elf). The 18 does barely anything for the Bard, really--because it costs 8 points, the 18 Cha Bard at 30 PB is going to have 3 fewer points to spend elsewhere than the 25 PB Bard with 16. And it's just another +1.

I guess what I'm saying is--if the cohort is going to upstage a PC, she'll probably do it regardless of the PB. Because 18s are overcosted in the standard PB system, using 18s will actually weaken the cohort overall, but it could still be nice for cohorts with that concept.

I guess in summary--the difference between 16 and 18 in a casting stat is not really all that noticable compared to the price (5% chance per casting a DC spell that it makes a difference, and starting at level 7, it's one bonus spell, though you likely have a +2 item by then anyway). Thus, it only really matters for a concept--and that concept may be important.

I agree with everything you said. None of my LEW characters has an 18. I was introducting the 30 point buy with restrictions as a compromise, but I'll gladly withdraw the idea. You've pretty well showed why I like cohorts with 25 point buy even better than the 30 point buy with restrictions. The difference between a 16 and an 18 is the same as the difference between a 14 and a 16. You can make perfectly effective, well-rounded characters with 25 point buy if you keep the highest stat of 14 or 15. Providing something more than that is keeping survivability the same while increasing the cohort's power in her niche. In my opinion, that is undesirable.

Rystil said:
Concrete example--I know because Vanitri leveled to 6 in one of my adventures that he was thinking of taking Leadership and bringing along an NPC friend from that adventure, though he eventually declined to take the feat due to the draconian restrictions we have on it here in LEW. The NPC is (imo, since I made her) an entertaining, well-rounded personality, but much of it is focused around the fact that the NPC has 19 Int (she's the Hermionesque book-smartest student type). Even with contemplating rearranging her other stats to fit 25 PB (since I made her, like most of my NPCs that aren't throwaway goons, using 30 PB), the 18 had to stay, or else her character makes no sense. But in the end, she would be weaker for it overall than if she had just taken the 16 and dealt out the stat points somewhere else (or taken 17 and counted on the fact that cohorts start at level 4 and get a stat raise).

This actually illustrates my objection very well. Hermione is not a cohort. A cohort can have an 18 intelligence, but she should have other fatal flaws (pun intended) that make her a cohort and not a main character. In my opinion, a strong, survivable adventuring wizard with that kind of book smarts should be a PC in LEW.