The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation

Elves are not winners, not successful, not able to adjust or cope, not able to survive. These realities are built into the race in 3rd edition (as it was in 2nd and 1st edition and OD&D)

We as players ignore this reality, even as we ignore the problems of kender when we play them. Nevertheless, the underlying reality remains, and nobody has an answer that negates it.
Or do they have an answer?

First, let's look at the problem.

In the real world, back in medieval Europe, life was - to use a clique - hard and short. The people faced trouble from both the natural world and the manmade world, and from their own needs.
Their own needs meant 90% of the population had to engage in farming, from sunup to sundown, their whole lives, if society was to exist. The remaining 10% of the population could do something else. This assumed good weather, good crop yields, and peacetime.
The natural world was not very nice to these people. Bad weather ruined crops and brought famine. Plagues swept through cities, towns, and fiefdoms alike. A host of personal illnesses saw sky-high birth mortality for women, sky-high mortality among children under 5, and an unpleasant life for the survivors (if you count having all your teeth decay and fall out as unpleasant ... or convulsing in tetanus because you suffered a minor, dirty injury ... or repeatedly ravaged by influenza ... or working until you drop dead from it.)
Manmade troubles included wars (nothing like the Hundred Years War to engender merriment), taxes (medieval taxes ...), conscription, forced labor, and a social feudal system from deepest nightmare.

Let's take this reality, and assume for a moment that the Fantasy World reflects it. In the Fantasy World, reality for the human race is this bad. Humanity must endure medieval conditions as we think of them in our own history.
This is a reasonable assumption to make. The Greyhawk Wars exemplify the suffering of the human race in the Flanaess. The War of the Lance, Test of the Twins, Rise of the Knights of Takhisis, and War of Souls exemplify the suffering of mankind on Krynn. On Toril, this suffering is shown in the detailed history of that world, with it's countless wars, humanoid invasions, beholder and djinn empires, drow assaults, illithid deprivations, collapse of one civilization after another, and as usual the uproar produced by the elves, phaerimm, Shade, Thayvians, Zhentarim, and other groups like that. On Athas, harsh takes on a whole new meaning as all life there is caught up in a final, twilight effort at survival. (Of course, in Hyboria it wouldn't be Hyboria if it wasn't a harsh place for harsh endeavors. In Nehwon, the Gray Mouser strides through a harsh world and thrives therein.)
In other worlds, life stinks, it is short and grim, and it's joys fleeting and to be grasped at while one has hands to use (or, as the Norse thought, make a big splash in your world. And hope Wotan approves of it.)

Now we understand the predicament of humans. So what of elves? Well ... in the Rules as Written ...

Elves have all the problems of humans.
They have all the problems of humans because they 1: have no special immunities to the horrors of nature, and 2: have no special immunities to manmade (and other races and monster) horrors, and 3: have to eat like anyone else.

But elves have handicaps that humans do not have, in their endeavor to compete and survive.

-

Humans in the medieval world had eight children. In good times, they could expect four to survive to adulthood. This occurred over a thirty year period. Thus, in a thousand year period, assuming good times (but if it is bad times, remember the bad times affect the elves also) you have around 8,589,934,592 descendants (2 x 2 for every 30 years.)
In that same time, a typical elven couple will have had 2 children, and their 2 children may or may not have had their first children yet. Total cumulative elven population? 5. Two older adults, two younger adults, and one child.
And again, remember that if bad times stop those two humans from producing eight billion descendants in a thousand years, bad times affect elves too!
8,589,934,592 versus 5 are large odds. And the humans will gladly accept resurrection. Elves never do. Or so I've been told. That stacks the odds more. And now it is said that elves believe those who chose baelnornhood and nymphdom and the like were insane (FOR5 Elves of Evermeet) which stacks the odds further: plenty of humans are glad to choose lichdom.

Furthermore, humans have this bad tendency to find longevity magic (you know exactly what I'm talking about ...) And in some settings, longevity is easy to obtain, or perhaps even semi-immortality as well.

-

Elves, for some reason, like forests. They do not clear these forests. Witness Qualinesti and Silvanesti Forest, or the elves skulking around in assorted Flannae forests, or the great Forest Nations of the elves of Toril (such as Cormanthor.)
That is all fine and well. But you cannot grow crops in forests. Wheat, corn, barley, oats, rye, will not grow under the trees. Grass for grazing, will not grow under a canopy of branches.
You cannot build houses in forests, unless of course you clear away the trees necessary to make room for a house. If there are thousands of elves wanting thousands of houses, this would require considerable clearing.
You *cannot* set up forges in a forest, unless you use wood (a great deal of wood) to fire them. If you try to use coal instead, say hello to some serious air pollution (and exactly where is this coal being mined? Not under the forest in question, I hope ...) But without forges you cannot produce anything made of bronze, iron, or steel, which means no elven armor or weapons.

Forests are not exactly comfortable places even in real life. Poison ivy and oak proliferate. Brambles trail away from thickets of thorns. Branches slap at the face and body. Footing is difficult, and falls and injuries easily obtained. Stagnant water is undrinkable, and what little food there is comes only in Season (witness Mirkwood, from The Hobbit, in which Thorin and Company almost met their demise.)
Of course every form of disease imaginable occurs in forest settings, and critters make things worse (that's right, there is no anti-venin for that rattlesnake bite, and yes there *are* black widows living in that tree and countless others, and yes the ticks, fleas, mosquitoes, and others bite, annoy, and carry horrible ailments for the victim's pleasure.)
In short, you can't build a civilization - even a civilization in the medieval sense of the word - in a forest.
Yet for some reason, elves insist on living in forests. Which means that, realistically, they never progress past the Stone Age (and the famous Elfquest strips and novels bear that out.)

For some reason, elves like to dance and sing, frolic and be merry. They apparently like to waste their time (purportedly because they have so much time to waste.)
But frolicking does not put supper on the table. It does not purify polluted water. It does not create weapons or armor. It does not cure illnesses or wounds. It does not even protect from the occasional rainstorm and the pneumonia that can cause (didn't someone mention that -2 penalty to Constitution for elves? LOL ...)
Now, the OTHER races do *not* waste time. Orcs procreate like bunnies and make war. Humans build vast empires (clearing forests along the way.) Illithid plot and scheme to dominate utterly the snackthings. Phaerimm plan world destruction. Manshoon (all 50 of him) creates anarchy. Aerdi destroys Almor, and the Adri will probably be next (after they wipe the floor with Drax.) Qualinesti Forest is burned, because the Knights of Takhisis got themselves a world class champion. The Dragon rose in a certain Athan city, destroying plants, animals, and humans to achieve ultimate supremacy.
But elves waste their time. It says so in the book.
Nothing like playing a game of RISK, and the Elven Player decides to take Australia and sit there. He does not take his 3 Armies per turn, he does not pick up cards, and he does not make attacks ... although he does defend and holds Australia. Until, of course, someone gets 50 Armies from a card and obliterates him along with all the other players.
But that is how elves supposedly work. Or, in this case, *not* work, but dance, sing, frolick, and make merry. *Humans* must slave away from sunrise to sundown just to survive, but elves need not do so. Or so it says.

So elves:

1: Do not procreate.
2: Live in forests under conditions that make any civilization beyond the Stone Age impossible.
3: Waste time in singing, dancing, and making merry.

And:

4: Humans and other races are on the aggressive against elves
5: Monsters infest the lands and forests, making survival even more difficult
6: Many of the other races are supercompetitive, superpowerful, and hate the elves like bad spinnach

Result: extinction. (Or, as the Daleks would say: Exterminate!)

-

The upshot of the above is that players invariably play elves as humans. And elven civilization is depicted as being humanlike (sometimes, it is more humanish than the humans make things, which is nasty ... witness the drow. Witness Melnibone, if you call those people elves.)
But what if some of us don't like elves as humans? What if we don't want that?
What if we want elves as ELVES? As a people who actually *do* procreate slowly, *do* live in forests, and *do* spend a lot of time in merriment?

The question is, how to approach that - in D&D terms, and these terms and rules make it possible and even easily done - and make it work. How to have your elves as elves, in spite of all of the above, and still have them as winners.

In fact, it is my opinion that, only through being Elven elves, do the elves have *any* chance at survival. Playing human inevitably destroys them. So it's either be true to themselves, or face obliteration.
The simple question is how to do that, within the game mechanics.

The answer starts with spells like Lifeproof (see the AL-QADIM Setting Boxed Set) Because that spell alters the fundamental realities I have discussed above.
And aren't elves supposed to be strong in magic?

I can see your point on the Elves, but... well, we kinda House Ruled their ages back, cause the twenty years of diapers (or whatever it was) was just to much tow swallow.

I have always thought that- hay, the elves live hundreds of years, and were more then likely in this land before anyone else they more then like staked out all the best land for themselves, then they learned from experience how to farm it, what the weather was gonna do, and how to handle it.

D&D has never (to my knowledge) been very good at giving Elves a better chance at survival because of their extended life span, but I think they should have something.

Also I think that with the Elves being attunded to magic, that they would utilize magic to help people with broken legs from lossing said leg to infection, or that they might use it to advance communications over long distances, etc.

Looking at gaming with a bit of reality is helpful, but to much might ruin your fun, and I think that is where you might be- looking at it with to much logic. Step back, give the Elves and their +2 Int, and the generations before to have figured out this all out before you joined them.

fwiw- I use to think about stuff like that, but realized that magic would make a world of difference that we (without magic) can not imagine.

Good luck & have fun

Well, that's pretty complex....among other things, fantasy worlds *don't* assume that humanity is in such poor condition as it was in the real world...particularly *because* of magic.

Families don't *have* to be that large, because clerics and low-level magical healing are around, which have far better capabilities to sustain healthy populations than humans in reality did. Birth control, as per books such as the FRCS, is available.

In 3E, there is very little magic to allow humans to extend their lifespans, unless you go to non-core resources.....in which case it is just as available to elves as it is to humans. And though elves are unlikely to use it, there are very few humans with the resources to get it also. There are no potions of longevity or philters of youth in 3E. Scarred Lands had a few spells which could reduce age....but you're looking at needing an arcane spellcaster of at least 9th level to cast them. And how many of *them* are there around? Not nearly as many as there are characters of non-arcane spellcaster classes, and especially, not nearly as many as you have commoners, experts etc. of all levels, who have no access to that magic.

In DL, you've got a few longlived human characters....not many. Fistandantilus and....um....that's about it. All the other greats, like Par-Salian, Justarius, etc. lived within the normal human limits. In GH, you've basically got the Circle of Eight, I guess. And in FR, the Chosen. And at last count, there are, what, 10 of them? Out of millions of humans? I think the availability of that magic is far less than you've portrayed.

As to other elements, such as elven slow reproduction, etc. most of the references to it tend to be in non-core supplements. I think the only WotC 3rd Ed. books which even come close to talking about it are Drow of the Underdark, and the Complete Wild. I'd need to review those to check. Most other references are in books about elves, which often combine the whole slow reproduction thing with rules/text about how resistant they are to regular diseases. So if you want to take the optional negatives, you should also likely take the optional positives as well.....which makes it more like:

Elves live long
Elves have few children
Elves are very resistant to non-magical diseases, and are generally immune to most ailments that humans fall prey to.

Similar to with the other thread....it's your campaign, you can do what you want. But according to the rules as written, most of those limitations don't exist. Much of your argument regarding baelnorns, nymphs etc. draw on resources such as Cormanthor, which in turn include assumptions from the Complete Book of Elves in 2nd Ed. You can't really have one without taking the other.

Your point regarding making merry etc. is valid. I don't have an answer to that one. I'd assume that they simply eat different things....more "forest food" than humans do....stuff that can be easily hunted and gathered. The rest, they probably manage through magic, since they have mages and clerics who aren't spending all their time figuring out better ways to blow stuff up or make themselves live forever. Maybe their spellcasters spend more time figuring out magic to help support their populations.

Frankly, aside from disease, I'd be wondering, on a statistical level, what are the odds that an elf (or a human with longevity magic) would ever make it to the limits of their lifespan in the first place? Assuming good health that whole time, statistically, what are the odds that they'll get kicked in the head by a cranky horse, fall down an open sewer and drown, get a piano dropped on them, slip in the shower, or otherwise fall victim to some lethal accident before they ever reach 600 years of life?

In my campaign, I've generally used the example set in the DL book "Otherlands", where it mentions that Dargonesti elves age at the same rate as humans until age 14, and then slow down, and take until about 35 to be as mature as an 18 year old human, and finally slow down to age like 1 year for every 10 (roughly) for the rest of their lifespan. I've also gone with the assumption that they have very strong immune systems, and generally recover from most ailments, and have good healing abilities, such as that unless damage is extreme, they'll heal well from most non-life threatening injuries. Doesn't do anything if someone wacks an arm off with an axe, or they get bitten by a werewolf, or hit by a plague spell.....but gives them a higher chance of realizing that 500+ year lifespan. So all generally non-gaming related things, that shouldn't have an effect during an adventurer's career. How many adventurers have you seen a DM inflict pneumonia, or tb, or bubonic plague or whatever on? Probably very few. But something like mummy rot, or other magical diseases? Probably more often. And elves would be just as vulnerable to them as humans are.

Of course, all of this is assuming logic, and most elements of the game are relatively illogical on one level or another, so...

Banshee

Hehe ... 20 years of diapers indeed. But that's nothing. Then it's 80 years of teenagehood madness after that (imagine *your* children hogging the phone for 80 years straight ...)

Let's look at Lifeproof. It comes from Zakhara, the Land of Fate, in Toril's southern hemisphere.
You allow the Shadow of Your Heart to be put in a gem by the casting wizard. If the gem (which cannot be magically protected) is destroyed, it kills you, no save.
But ...
So long as that gem stays intact and the SYH remains within, you have unlimited hit points. Period. Infinite hit points. Every 10 points you drop below 0, your Charisma drops by 1 point, but otherwise you are not harmed.
You *cannot* be incapacitated by a weapons blow. If your eyes are gouged out, you can still see. If your ears are cut off, you can still hear. If your arm or leg is severed, you can (presumably as a Full Round Action, but perhaps as a Standard Action or even a Swift Action) put it right back on, and it grafts instantly. Ditto your head (although that would most certainly be a Full Round Action ...)
You feel no pain if wounded, although you know you're wounded.
If you contract a disease, it causes no discomfort and can neither kill nor incapacitate you (you might run around black as night from the Plague, but aside from being contagious no other problems would accrue.)

You can still die from poison (but not poisoning of the body from disease.) An assassin's poison will still get you.
Green slime can still devour you whole (leading to a Lifeproofed green slime ... ick ...)
Looking at a nymph can still blind or kill you. A dryad can still charm you and take you away (or something far less pleasant can charm you and ...)
Death magic still affects you. When Lord Soth points his finger and utters Power Word Kill, you still die.
You can still be buried alive in rocks or mud or water and be rendered helpless. You won't suffocate or suffer oxygen deprivation problems. Your brain cannot be addled from such things (poison gas will addle it, but not suffocation.)

The spell lasts forever, unless the gem is broken.

So imagine that the Queen of the Elves and her mages throw Lifeproof on every Elf of the Realm.
Reality is turned upside down.

Every elf, now has the invincibility of the Frenzied Berserker while Frenzied, only it's permanent and no Frenzy is required.
Suddenly, elves are a terror to all. They would make Feanor and his Noldor look like weaklings in comparison. These elves would slay Glaurung, wipe the floor with those balrogs, kill those endless millions of orcs. Morgoth, if he were smart, would shut the doors of Angband with a bang and hide in his deepest dungeons. Or, better yet, get Ungoliant to hide him in her webbing.
All because of one little 7th level spell, out of one supplement out of countless supplements, out of one edition of D&D out of five editions.

Imagine that even a single elf girl had the High Magic spell known as Nymph's Aura up in addition to Lifeproof.
She is standing inside Minas Tirith. And here comes the Morgul Host, 60,000 orcs and Haradrim and 9 Nazgul.
She walks to the wall, casts off her clothing, and throws Nymph's Aura. This 2nd Edition spell is Line of Sight.
Considering saving throw difficulties, about half of the Morgul Host, including one or two of the Nazgul and their beasts, go down instantly. In the subsequent rounds, those coming up to see what happened see the girl, and half of them die also. The smart ones retreat, and soon the remnant of the Host is back beyond the Causeway Forts.

Now some poor soul must go to Sauron and tell him that some slip of a girl destroyed his beautiful army. Any volunteers?

Even the first level Regenerate spell (from Polyhedron #28) makes a world of difference if the elves have it.
For now, after the battle, they are all still alive, and many of their enemies are not.

Agnakoks come from the Complete Book of Mages. So if the elves are magic inclined, why not make them Agnakoks, and state Temperate Forest as a horrendous place? Because, after all, it is.
If elves are going to live in the woods, we might as well make them *comfortable* there. Granting them Agnakok powers does that. Agnakoks have alterations in their appearance from the norm ... which is why elves have pointy ears! And which is why elves come in different flavors like gold, silver, green (literally), blue, purple, pure white, and pure black.

Within the Game Mechanics, within the Rules, are all the answers a DM could ever need to fix elves, to make elves competitive and more competitive with the other races. Background information (what you'all call Fluff) can be added as needed.
Play human? A little, yes. Maybe even a lot. (Otherwise, we humans couldn't rp elves at all, could we?)
Play with the rules to find a winning combination? Absolutely and all the time.

They say elves are smart, with around 15 Intelligence being average (150 IQ.)
If that is true, and if elves are magically inclined, there is no question that they use it to win.
And since this falls under the complicated Rules for Spells and Feats and Prestige Classes, it is to those rules the elves must look for supremacy!

I would daresay, then, that every elf has his or her Player's Handbook, and a host of other supplements and gaming magazines, on hand. Reading them is compulsory. Using what is learned therein is most mandatory!

Edena said:

Elves, for some reason, like forests. They do not clear these forests. Witness Qualinesti and Silvanesti Forest, or the elves skulking around in assorted Flannae forests, or the great Forest Nations of the elves of Toril (such as Cormanthor.)
That is all fine and well. But you cannot grow crops in forests. Wheat, corn, barley, oats, rye, will not grow under the trees. Grass for grazing, will not grow under a canopy of branches.
You cannot build houses in forests, unless of course you clear away the trees necessary to make room for a house. If there are thousands of elves wanting thousands of houses, this would require considerable clearing.
You *cannot* set up forges in a forest, unless you use wood (a great deal of wood) to fire them. If you try to use coal instead, say hello to some serious air pollution (and exactly where is this coal being mined? Not under the forest in question, I hope ...) But without forges you cannot produce anything made of bronze, iron, or steel, which means no elven armor or weapons.

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I have to agree with most of your analysis, but I don't agree with this part (or at least some of this part of the analysis).

Elves often use magic to alter forests, so they're not as harsh. Plus they're basically survivalists. They also live in tree-houses, not particularly realistic, but this is a fantasy setting, and they do have a small population.

Elves do build cities in a lot of settings, although these cities are eco-friendly (often surrounded by forest), so they have some cleared land for some purposes. Sometimes the cities are built into the trees, but that's not particularly realistic. I think the elves figure nature is important (more than humans think so), but elves are still arrogant enough to put themselves before nature.

In the Dragonlance setting, humans created metal weapons and then sold them to elves. (So much for elves making "superior" weapons!) Ironically this means elves pay humans to pollute!

I have to agree that elves couldn't feed a huge civilization. Their lower population numbers could mean that hunters could supply them with meat without wiping out the prey animals, but as for their vegetable needs? There's not enough space in an elven city to farm all that stuff, at least as far as I see it, and picking berries isn't particularly efficient either.

Every 10 points you drop below 0, your Charisma drops by 1 point, but otherwise you are not harmed.

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But, wait. You lose charisma? Each elf then has, at max, 180 hp, which, true, is a lot, but once they lose them, they can't regain them. And at 0 charisma, they withdraw into a coma.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


so many commas!

Edena_of_Neith said:

The upshot of the above is that players invariably play elves as humans.

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Alright...

But what if some of us don't like elves as humans? What if we don't want that? What if we want elves as ELVES?

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Invariably means without variation.

The first assertion precludes the possibility of achieving the second.



Cheers,
Roger

Edena_of_Neith said:

In the real world, back in medieval Europe, life was - to use a clique - hard and short. The people faced trouble from both the natural world and the manmade world, and from their own needs.
Their own needs meant 90% of the population had to engage in farming, from sunup to sundown, their whole lives, if society was to exist. The remaining 10% of the population could do something else. This assumed good weather, good crop yields, and peacetime.
The natural world was not very nice to these people. Bad weather ruined crops and brought famine. Plagues swept through cities, towns, and fiefdoms alike. A host of personal illnesses saw sky-high birth mortality for women, sky-high mortality among children under 5, and an unpleasant life for the survivors (if you count having all your teeth decay and fall out as unpleasant ... or convulsing in tetanus because you suffered a minor, dirty injury ... or repeatedly ravaged by influenza ... or working until you drop dead from it.)
Manmade troubles included wars (nothing like the Hundred Years War to engender merriment), taxes (medieval taxes ...), conscription, forced labor, and a social feudal system from deepest nightmare.

Let's take this reality, and assume for a moment that the Fantasy World reflects it. In the Fantasy World, reality for the human race is this bad. Humanity must endure medieval conditions as we think of them in our own history....
In other worlds, life stinks, it is short and grim, and it's joys fleeting and to be grasped at while one has hands to use (or, as the Norse thought, make a big splash in your world. And hope Wotan approves of it.)

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I'm not sure that I agree with this assumption. Although war is common in DnD worlds the same is not true of famine and death from disease. Druids ensure higher crop yeilds and clerics reduced suffering from disease. Therefore the only major threat is from attack - Elfs tend to be seen as a good race to deal with and have magic and forests as protection

Elves, for some reason, like forests. They do not clear these forests. Witness Qualinesti and Silvanesti Forest, or the elves skulking around in assorted Flannae forests, or the great Forest Nations of the elves of Toril (such as Cormanthor.)
That is all fine and well. But you cannot grow crops in forests. Wheat, corn, barley, oats, rye, will not grow under the trees. Grass for grazing, will not grow under a canopy of branches.
You cannot build houses in forests, unless of course you clear away the trees necessary to make room for a house. If there are thousands of elves wanting thousands of houses, this would require considerable clearing.
You *cannot* set up forges in a forest, unless you use wood (a great deal of wood) to fire them. If you try to use coal instead, say hello to some serious air pollution (and exactly where is this coal being mined? Not under the forest in question, I hope ...) But without forges you cannot produce anything made of bronze, iron, or steel, which means no elven armor or weapons.

Forests are not exactly comfortable places even in real life. Poison ivy and oak proliferate. Brambles trail away from thickets of thorns. Branches slap at the face and body. Footing is difficult, and falls and injuries easily obtained. Stagnant water is undrinkable, and what little food there is comes only in Season (witness Mirkwood, from The Hobbit, in which Thorin and Company almost met their demise.)
Of course every form of disease imaginable occurs in forest settings, and critters make things worse (that's right, there is no anti-venin for that rattlesnake bite, and yes there *are* black widows living in that tree and countless others, and yes the ticks, fleas, mosquitoes, and others bite, annoy, and carry horrible ailments for the victim's pleasure.)
In short, you can't build a civilization - even a civilization in the medieval sense of the word - in a forest.

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Now this is entirely false. It is true that you can't have huge population expansion and the intensive grain farming practices employed by humans but then elfs don't have to.
We have already established the elfs have low population densities this means that forest based cropping is viable. A single grove of trees can include tubers under the soil, mushrooms and other fungus, short leafy vegetables, wild fruits, fern shoots, orchid hearts and a variety of herbs. Insects and birds are useful foods which use the groves as habitat.

Now an elf tree village might have a number of groves within its vicinity each of which is indistinguishable from the surrounding forest but which are nonetheless cultivated. Elfs life in these groves too above the ground using the low level ivy and throns as defense against attack

For some reason, elves like to dance and sing, frolic and be merry. They apparently like to waste their time (purportedly because they have so much time to waste.)
But frolicking does not put supper on the table. It does not purify polluted water. It does not create weapons or armor. It does not cure illnesses or wounds. It does not even protect from the occasional rainstorm and the pneumonia that can cause (didn't someone mention that -2 penalty to Constitution for elves? LOL ...)

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What we regard as frolicking could be the social rituals of the elfs by which they form political alliances. Elfs know magic and perhaps the frolicking is part of their bardic rituals designed specifically to increase crop yeilds, purify water, fabricate armour and fortifications (Lyre of Building?), cure disease and control weather

Elfs make best use of forest based cultivation to support their low densitity populations, they use magical rituals to fortify their position and increase crop yeilds, they form social networks with other 'good races' using elaboarate ritual 'frolicking' and avoid conflict through mastery of their terrain (the Elf Ranger who remains unseen while he shoots from the trees)

Edena_of_Neith said:

Elves are not winners, not successful, not able to adjust or cope, not able to survive. These realities are built into the race in 3rd edition (as it was in 2nd and 1st edition and OD&D)

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I'd like some rules text, from ANY edition, to back this up.

Slife said:

But, wait. You lose charisma? Each elf then has, at max, 180 hp, which, true, is a lot, but once they lose them, they can't regain them. And at 0 charisma, they withdraw into a coma.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.


so many commas!

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I appreciate that you go into a coma when you reach 0 Charisma in 3rd Edition.

Lifeproof, in 3rd Edition, would supersede this rule, allowing one to go to negative Charisma numbers and remain active. There is no barrier at which this process is stopped: Charisma might stop going lower at, say, -10 but the recipient of Lifeproof could keep right on going.
In fact, even being vaporized will not stop a Lifeproofed being. The vapors will coalesce into a ghostly being of magical force, capable of picking up and use items and weapons normally, as well as spellcasting, talking, and so on.
The 2nd Edition Disintegrate will kill a Lifeproofed being, since it involves total disintegration. The 3rd Edition version, which leaves dust, will not kill or incapacitate that being.

It's a fair spell for elves, considering how stacked against them the odds are. Elves use magic to even those odds ...