The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

Maldor

First Post
elfs and almost any race really never need fear food shortages i mean for 500gp a 3rd level druid can make a fixed place magic item with goodberry that on a average day can feed up to 57,600 people each day forever and as for magic not being coomon count up the number of classes that don't have a SU or SP or spells and compare it to those that do
 

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Drkfathr1

First Post
The original presumption that Elves are "doomed" as written in all editions of D&D is false to begin with, therefore, the rest is irrevelant.
 

mmadsen

First Post
Edena_of_Neith said:
In the real world, back in medieval Europe, life was - to use a clique - hard and short.
The cliche is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short, and it's from Hobbes' Leviathan. It's not meant to describe life within an agrarian society but outside of civilization and its laws.

At any rate, medieval folk, like people in the less-developed world today, lived on the equivalent of approximately $600 per year -- almost enough food to eat, and little else.
Edena_of_Neith said:
Elves, for some reason, like forests. They do not clear these forests. [...] But you cannot grow crops in forests. Wheat, corn, barley, oats, rye, will not grow under the trees. Grass for grazing, will not grow under a canopy of branches.
Presumably the elves have mastered some kind of polyculture agriculture, where they grow multiple different kinds of edible plants and animals in those forests, not as cleanly separated crops, but as an intertwined ecosystem.

Thus, they can get similar energy out of forest land as humans get out of cleared land, but with a greater variety of foods with a better nutritional profile, and they do it efficiently enough -- through magic? -- that they have plenty of leisure time for singing, dancing, etc.

(Imagine what modern post-industrial American society would look like without everyone at home on their couches watching TV.)
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Aside from Edena's apparent desire to assume a whole lot more than most of the rest of us...

I think there's an issue with so strongly trying to force the D&D elf into the mold of the European fey elves. The rules simply don't support it, as written. Elves get played rather like humans because, as far as the rules are concerned, they're rather like humans.

You'll note that European fey don't live in the human forests - they live in their own fey realm that humans can't invade. When Tolkien put elves in the human world (even though his are immortal, and more powerful than humans) they didn't compete well with the mortal creatures, and eventually faded.

it isn't easy to have it both ways - as an ECL 0 race, you can't make them mechanically all that dissimilar to the other humanoid races, and that means that all the things the other humanoids are victim to may also affect elves.
 


mmadsen

First Post
Umbran said:
it isn't easy to have it both ways - as an ECL 0 race, you can't make them mechanically all that dissimilar to the other humanoid races, and that means that all the things the other humanoids are victim to may also affect elves.
An ECL-0 race can be dramatically more powerful than all the other races. As others have pointed out, if elves are generally 8th-level bards, druids, etc. rather than 1st-level commoners, then elves are, one on one, much more powerful than humans.

There's a big difference between looking at how powerful a game-mechanical choice is -- what game-mechanical benefits you get for the game-mechanical cost -- versus looking at how things operate within the game world.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
mmadsen said:
An ECL-0 race can be dramatically more powerful than all the other races. As others have pointed out, if elves are generally 8th-level bards, druids, etc. rather than 1st-level commoners, then elves are, one on one, much more powerful than humans.

Thinking out loud here...

I'd call that a choice of demographics, which rests in the setting, and is not actually a mechanical difference between the races. There's no mechanical reason humans are all 1st level commoners.

Of course, there's no mechanical reason for elves to be infertile, either. That's also setting information that I don't believe is addressed in the core rules either. So, if the problem is partially based in setting information, so can the solution, I suppose.
 
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Slife

First Post
Game mechanically, elves are the inferior race. Not by too much, though.

Of course, game mechanically, kobolds are either the most superior or most inferior race.
 

BlackMoria

First Post
Elves are not winners, not successful, not able to adjust or cope, not able to survive. These realities are built into the race in 3rd edition (as it was in 2nd and 1st edition and OD&D)

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."
--Adam, Mythbusters--

The above quote sums up my feelings. Many people have already articulated why your assertions are not factual and the flaws inherent in your arguments.

What surprises me is why are we on this merry-go-round a second time. One thread is enough to debate the merits or lack of merits of your assertions. But a second thread?

Simply go with elves or discount them. Pure and simple. It is a game after all and we are not historians arguing why the Clovis culture went extinct.
 

WayneLigon

Adventurer
Edena_of_Neith said:
I look up into temperate trees, and there isn't much there to work with (it's not like you could put a 2,000 square foot house there) in those small maple branches - or linden branches, hickory, elm, oak, or pine branches. Even in the bigger trees, it'd have to be a small tree-house.

You're looking at those little piss-ant Florida trees in their so-called forests that suffer from inadequate soil and inadequate fresh water and getting blown over or were clear cut within the last 10-20-50 years, or were burned back. You've got a lot of 'forest' planted and planned for eventual lumber production, so you have a lot of pine trees and other 'useful' trees that grow tall and straight with little in the way of limbs. You know why? They were planted that way for eventual harvest, and they're easier to use for furniture production.

Most of the areas you might think of as 'wild forest', isn't. Someone owns and maintains that woodland. In most places in the US you're really looking at managed cultivated forest that exists solely for timber production. You look at true old growth forests and there is more than enough 'tree' there to support a city of massive tree houses.

I don't see elves as needing the amounts of wasteful space we do, either. A 2000-square-foot house to them would be like a mansion. I see them as very efficient users of their space; everything will have four or fives uses and they'll produce very little waste. They are typically expert craftsmen; they take a month to build a chair and that chair is going to last a 200-300 years. What waste they do produce will go into the tree, or for fodder for the compost.

Part of this outlook comes from the fact that D&D does a really poor job of mentioning how magic aids daily life; it's all about killing monsters or saving your own butt. Fine and dandy most of the time, but you're overlooking a lot of the implied Elven magics that help them survive.

Elven communities are typically not very big. They will plant crops, but not as we plant crops; they'll plant in plots, not rows. In an old growth forest, there's plenty of room on thr ground. There's not much undergrowth at all because the tree canopy so you can grow an abundance of things that do well in shade.

It's much more labor intensive but elves have an abundance of time. Planting in plots creates larger and healthier yeilds, especially since things like pixies, gorse, and other small faires are going to help them by being able to keep vermin and insects to a minimum.

In fact, elven crops are probably much healthier and thus create much larger yeilds than comparable human crops do because of their various means of insect control. Farming in the middle ages is a hugely time consuming effort that really yeilds very little. Insects ruin a tremendous amount of human produce, something like 20-25%.

Add that to the idea that elves know what works best when fertilizing soil, and an elven community is likely to do better than a comprable human community of the same size. They'll probably export to the human communities bordering the forest, especially in winter.

Also, elves don't need titanic agrarian fields of wheat and corn like large human settlements do. Why? They don't usually raise food animals or use beasts of burden or a great deal of riding animals. From what I remember, a huge percentage of that wheat and corn in a human famr goes to feed animals, not people. If elves want meat, they hunt it. Otherwise, fruits, nuts, eggs, root veggies, green veggies, and lots of mushrooms. They also probably know means of rendering edible many plants that are not normally edible by humanoids. It's also likely that their culture will eat things your Northern European doesn't consider food, like grubs, worms, many types of beetles, etc. All of it rich in protien and other nutrients.

Now, all this is without magic. With magic, they're going to be producing bumper crops of forest-based fodder.
 

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