The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

Beckett

Explorer
shilsen said:
fusangite, you rock!

I'd commented on precisely the same thing (albeit with less details and eloquence) in Edena's previous thread on the subject, which this one seems no different to. Edena has come up with his own, strangely pathetic version of elves and evidently assumes that both the RAW and elves in literature/myth somehow logically lead to that concept, which - as you point out - they don't. I'd considered replying here too, but figured I'd just be beating a dead horse and repeating something I (and a lot of other posters) have already pointed out. Nice to see a well-crafted refutation from you, however.

Shilsen quoted the same passage I would have to cheer Fusangite on. Very well done.

I think part of the problem is Edena is using a different subrace of elf than many of us are familiar with. My games typically feature high and gray elves, sometimes dark and wood elves. But to date, I've never had a straw elf.
 

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Thornir Alekeg

Albatross!
I'm not going to get into a point by point discussion, but a few things I've thought of:

- There are no distinct rules for natural diseases in the core rules. With the longevity of elves it is simple to believe that they have evolved an immunity to most natural disease. Those that did not evolve to have these immunities were likely exposed to and died of such diseases during their twenty years in diapers, or before they were able to procreate and pass along their weak genes.

- Elven society is often portrayed as reclusive and with decent magical ability. It is simple to believe that they managed to stay out of most of the conflicts of humans. The superstitious nature of humans could be used to keep them away from their forest homes as "haunted woods."

- Elven trees used for their cities are usually portrayed as much, much larger than trees of the real world. It is simple to believe that those trees are capable of producing large amounts of edible shoots, leaves, nuts etc. and perhaps some of the large surfaces could be used to farm significant quantities of edible mushrooms, lichens or other plant materials. Animals would be abundant in an area like this. With the smaller population expansion of the elves, due to their low birth rate, the natural animal population could be sustainable when hunted for meat.

- There have been some studies that seem to indicate that normal human lifespans can be extended through low caloric intake. It could be construed that part of the reason elves live so long is that they have lower caloric needs, therefore they need less food to survive, so the large agricultural society required by humans is unnecessary. For the purposes of rules, adventuring elves could be much more active than non-adventuring elves and so still need a normal day's worth of rations.

- Elven society "wastes" its time with lots of singing, dancing and making merry. The result of that is a society that is more accepting of itself and more harmonious. The greater cooperation of a society like this can result in greater efficiency, therefore more can live with less.
 

the Jester

Legend
the Jester said:
Originally posted by Edena_of_Neith
Elves are not winners, not successful, not able to adjust or cope, not able to survive. These realities are built into the race in 3rd edition (as it was in 2nd and 1st edition and OD&D)...[/Edena]

I'd like some rules text, from ANY edition, to back this up.

I'm still waiting, Edena.

If you want elves to be hopeless and useless in your campaign, that's fine, but your threads on the subject seem to imply that they're hopeless and useless in everyone's campaign. No so. If you're going to argue this, back it up with rules text. Otherwise, you're relying on a mish-mash of different sources and you're cherry picking things to back up your point.

Where in the RAW does it say that elves don't procreate? Where does it say that they frolic to the exclusion of taking care of business? Where does it say that living in a forest precludes getting ahead of the Stone Age?

I'm gettng bored here. ;)
 

Edena_of_Neith

First Post
(long post)

Ok, let me try it from this angle.

People, when the game designers created those high level spells, they created the possibility of completely altered worlds, completely altered civilizations, and completely altered reality.
In their creativity (and I would argue the game designers throughout the 30 years of D&D's history have been very creative) they have implemented rules (in this case, spells) that offered a retroactive chance to redefine whole races, whole nations, redefine the entirety of how things are done.

That is why I highlighted Lifeproof. This 7th level spell is an excellent example of how a specific rule (a spell) could completely alter a civilization and how everything is done within it's boundaries. Because that rule (that spell) so alters reality that the civilization alters in turn.
Lifeproof is not the only, or the best, example of this. There are many, many spells of high level, mid level, and even low level (such as the Regenerate spell from Polyhedron #28) that alter the fundamental reality of the game.
Based on these game mechanics, these rules, you can produce realistic, believable cultures and civilizations that otherwise would be absurd (you have to suspend belief, as usual ... if Netheril can loft whole cities into the air, then so be it. If the elves can all Lifeproof themselves, then so be it!)

In this way, you *can* produce an elven culture where elves are laxidasical, frolicking, frivolous, merry, spend their time dancing and singing, and otherwise wasting time ... and still produce their famous elven chain and elven swords, still be the baddest warriors and wizards around, and be the scourge of the land if they so choose.
You *can* have your cake and eat it too. Magic makes it possible. Magic makes anything possible. So long as the rules (or some set of rules) are observed, it's even half palatable (well, ok, it's sometimes palatable, and it depends on how far you can stretch suspension of disbelief.)

If elves are Agnakoks, NONE of those natural horrors I mentioned apply to them. The forest is a playground, not a dreaded wilderness.
If elves are magically inclined, they have clerics and wizards and overturn reality on a regular basis (they don't overturn it to the point of being Faerie Beings, but they overturn it to a radical degree.)
I mean, any elven cleric worth her salt is going to take that original version of Divine Metamagic, and use it to create Persistent Spells of the most ghastly sort, on a regular basis. Elves will (as any race would) use the rules to the absolute fullest, twist them to their absolute maximum advantage, so they can win (just as we do in real life, with the rules of physics and mechanics and mathematics and so on.)

-

The PROBLEM with this approach should be obvious: what the elves can do, humans can do, and illithid can do, and phaerimm can do, and so on, and they will. And some of these races are brighter than elves, some are driven more to compete, some have more profound understandings of magic, the illithid have psionics, and humans reproduce faster.
So if the elves can twist reality, so can their foes. And they will. In 3rd Edition, even orcs can become wizards and clerics, and *they* will twist reality out of all recognition to achieve their ends (even if their working of magic causes the magic to backlash and burn up half the world ... imagine orcish High Mages (shudders))

The logical answer to this problem is to make the elves more driven and brighter than their foes. And to somehow use magic to compensate for their lack of progeny. But how to do it, and keep elves as elves?

-

The game is level based, and high level characters and NPCs have the strongest power.
Where does leveling come from? Experience points. Where do they come from? Winning encounters, defeating foes, and killing things. Especially killing things.
In other words, War is the ticket to quickly gaining high level. War could make everyone high level, if everyone could survive the process.
Other ways to level are so difficult, so slow, that the warmongers have the clear advantage. For example, Wish will grant experience points, but not many, and the Wishing caster pays a heavy price. Non-combat activities will grant experience, but at about 1/10th the rate of active adventuring or warmongering.

And it requires high level, if the elves are going to use magic to alter reality. That Lifeproof spell is 7th level. It takes a 13th level wizard to cast it, in 3rd Edition (14th in 2nd Edition.)

But war ... War does not make for merriment and laughter. Perhaps among the illithid and phaerimm and drow it does, but not for elves and humans and dwarves and halflings.
War ... WAR ... destroys people. It turns young people into very old people, very quickly (to paraphrase real life war veterans.) Many famous or infamous films have been made on war, and all of them show the people involved in war are scarred by it. They do not come out laughing and merry. They come out grim and hard and glad to be alive. (Apocalypse Now, All Quiet on the Western Front, Saving Private Ryan, Full Metal Jacket, and others come to mind here.)
EVIL races might enjoy war, with their twisted minds and twisted emotions. But a GOOD race, like elves (they *are* supposed to be chaotic good in general.) Not at all.
Elves are going to react like humans to war, only more so. They are going to hate it, engage in it only because they must, fight for their buddies in combat, and come out of it scarred and prematurely old. (And indeed, this is a common portrayal of elves in combat ... consider Laurana, before she died in the Destruction of Qualinesti.)

Now, this relates directly to the above. I said that elves needed to be more driven than their foes. But these foes enjoy war (I would daresay orcs enjoy fighting and killing ...) and the elves do not. How to make the elves more driven than their warmongering, warloving, crazy-nut opponents?
Because experience points go to the warmongers, and so the orcs raise in level, and the (far more sane) war-shy elves do not.

How? How? How?
If the orcs love war more, then they gain levels faster, and they gain the magic first, and they alter reality first, and ... we have a bunch of dead elves. The game mechanics say so. In 3rd Edition, they say so ever so much more, because now orcs can be ANY class they want, or any combination of classes. No level limits, no restrictions, no nothing! It's carte blanche, and the orcs are waving their proclamations of freedom in glee!
Get to the phaerimm, that race of supergenius, supermages (in 2nd Edition, they AVERAGED 40th level, guys - see the Ruins of Myth Drannor boxed set, 2nd Edition) the elves are up against an opponent that dwarfs the orcs in terms of it's magnitude. Thus, Evereska was nearly obliterated, despite all that help it got from everyone else. (Had those phaerimm been 2nd Edition phaerimm, and thus averaging 40th level, goodbye Evereska, goodbye Evermeet, goodbye the entire continent of Faerun ... unless the Sharn intervened.)

How then? How?
For the elves, like any normal race, cannot psychologically withstand war after war after war. They *cannot* do so. Even Tolkien's elves ultimately could not do so.
Imagine having to fight in World War III. Then living through the Aftermath (the Aftermath being 100 years of continuous war, on a low level.) Then living through World War IV. And World War V. And World War VI. VII. VIII. IX. World War X. And you're still only halfway through your life.
Or simply imagine an 80 hour work week, with retirement being 2000 years away.
Tolkien's elves got tired of this (the wars with Morgoth and Sauron) and went away to paradise (Valinor.) Could D&D elves fare better?
Or would they first grow grim and hard, then as cold and hard as the drow, then as cold and hard and monstrous as the Menibonians, and finally go insane from too much personal pain, stress, and loss?

Again: how? How?
Elves have the psychology of normal, healthy people. They are not lunatic warmongers. But their foes are, can stay that way indefinitely, and there are no end to the number of foes available. And to the warmongers go the experience points, thus the levels, thus the power and magic and the ability to turn reality upside down.
Indeed, the drow should have conquered and exterminated the elves long ago. If Vhaerun or Hextor or some sane diety was leading them, they would have.

I want to create a race of believable elves, while taking in all the realities of the D&D game mechanics and the reality of the settings. Those realities are the ones I have described above, and they dictate that the elves are crushed. And so it is, in the novels and settings, that the elves ARE crushed, and reduced to a pitiful remnant, and even that only still around because of sympathetic humans or the intervention of other races.
How to turn this around, and make it believable?
I have the first answer: magic. What is the answer to the psychological problem?

-

The answer *I* chose was to make the elves insane themselves.
This particular insanity caused them to view war as play, suffering as pleasure (or, at least, the same ol same ol), killing as joyous, and grim, gloomy surroundings as reasonable.
Then I cranked up this insanity to manical levels, to a mad obsession, to a level surpassing even the Blood War level of eager aggression. To a level that made the drow look tame in comparison.

But how to keep the elves elves, in this scenario, and not Daleks?

Well, the answer was to use magic again. The elves foresaw that this was the only answer, but THEY wanted to remain themselves in spite of it.
So they used magic to place constraints on themselves. These constraints bound them as a communal people, gave them communal strength against the dangers of Dark Magic, prevented them from harming each other, and preserved the basic nature of who they were ... that is, it preserved the instincts towards Everything Elven, as we would call it. The love of the forest, of music, of art and crafts, of building and creation, of architectural wonders. The love of a mate, the love for children, respect for parents and family, respect for community. The innate love of life ... so that warmongering was turned only against fellow warmongerers, and not against civilians or peaceful races, not against those who offered no threat. The innate love of life so great, that baelnorns made sense. The innate love of life so great, that those slain were glad to be Resurrected and returned to the fight.

This compromise was achieved in a great magical ritual, and Haldendrea became Haldendreeva in honor of it.
Did the compromise work? Most would say no. No, these are not elves. These are lunatics.
But they did survive, when no other elves could. They retained enough of themselves to be recognizable as elves, in some sense of the word.

In Realms terminology, they cast a kind of Mythal, only it was over themselves, and the Mythal regulated their behavior, while allowing them to become as aggressive as their worst foes. And they acquired a mindset that protected them from the trauma, the horror, the ultimate destruction of oneself, that war causes ... indeed, the mindset protected them ever more, as they suffered and bled and died and were resurrected. The Mythal Mindset kept them elves, when otherwise they could not be anything other than monsters.
Thus they withstood the illithid, the stormriders, the sahuagin, the dark dwarves, and the fiends who came for them.
They became like the phaerimm in the sense of being a race of supergenius archmages and high clerics and accomplished warriors. They withstood Vecna. They threw Vecna's forces back. They assaulted and slaughtered Vecna's armies. Ultimately, they were able to achieve a standoff against Vecna himself. They could do this, because within the game mechanics they were warmongers, and the Mythal allowed their insanity while protecting their minds.

-

But was this the right answer?
Or was it all wrong? Is there a better way?

The game mechanics dictate that the warmongers win the day. Such is the nature of D&D, a game based on killing.
Elves are normal people psychologically. War will hurt them, as it hurts all normal people caught in it. Enough war will destroy them ... and then they are naught but monsters themselves. And elves, being good aligned, are especially vulnerable to this happening.
Yet only the warmongers can *achieve* the power necessary to throw the magic needed to turn reality upside down. That Lifeproof spell goes to the *warmongers* and not peaceful elves. To the warmongers, go the world. (As Conan would gladly point out.)

The Haldendreevan elves took one compromise, as a solution to the problem.
Is there another way?

-

- Is there another way? -

-

Edena_of_Neith
 


Turjan

Explorer
Edena_of_Neith said:
In the real world, back in medieval Europe, life was - to use a clique - hard and short. The people faced trouble from both the natural world and the manmade world, and from their own needs.
The natural world was not very nice to these people. Bad weather ruined crops and brought famine. Plagues swept through cities, towns, and fiefdoms alike. A host of personal illnesses saw sky-high birth mortality for women, sky-high mortality among children under 5, and an unpleasant life for the survivors (if you count having all your teeth decay and fall out as unpleasant ... or convulsing in tetanus because you suffered a minor, dirty injury ... or repeatedly ravaged by influenza ... or working until you drop dead from it.)
Manmade troubles included wars (nothing like the Hundred Years War to engender merriment), taxes (medieval taxes ...), conscription, forced labor, and a social feudal system from deepest nightmare.
I guess that's a certain misconception of medieval lives, at least as far as cities are concerned. Historians have studied contracts and prices from the 14th century, and they came to the conclusion that the percentage of income a journeyman had to spend on food was pretty much the same then as it is now. They had an equal amount of disposable income. They even got a visit at the public bath house paid once a week, which was as much entertainment as it was beneficial to hygiene. Investigations of skeletons from that time indicates that people were generally well nourished and comparatively healthy, except in times of plague. This point is also true for people from the countryside.

Yes, there were the occasional famines, plagues and wars. But those were the exception. The situation got much worse later, especially the early modern times.
 

mmadsen

First Post
Edena_of_Neith said:
(long post)
Edena, I understand that half the point of posting is to think out loud, but I'm having trouble -- and I think a lot of people are having trouble -- trying to figure out your point.

On the one hand, you seem to be looking at the "problem" through the very, very narrow lens of the game mechanics. Then, on the other hand, you seem to be introducing one or two hand-picked ideas from outside the game mechanics, which imply that elves cannot thrive or even survive.
Edena_of_Neith said:
So if the elves can twist reality, so can their foes. And they will. In 3rd Edition, even orcs can become wizards and clerics, and *they* will twist reality out of all recognition to achieve their ends (even if their working of magic causes the magic to backlash and burn up half the world ... imagine orcish High Mages (shudders))
I think it's a mistake to look at each race as composed of thousands of PCs of that race, with players behind them, going over the rulebooks, figuring out the optimal strategy for that society of PCs to follow.

The folk of those societies don't think, "Hey, we can all be wizards and clerics if we choose to!" They grow up to farm, or herd, or fight -- whatever role they fit into in that society. After all, why don't undeveloped countries in the real world simply develop? Why don't they just do what will obviously work? Because it's not that simple, and no one person with the rule book for Earth 3.5 gets to make all the optimal choices.
Edena_of_Neith said:
The game is level based, and high level characters and NPCs have the strongest power.

Where does leveling come from? Experience points. Where do they come from? Winning encounters, defeating foes, and killing things. Especially killing things.

In other words, War is the ticket to quickly gaining high level. War could make everyone high level, if everyone could survive the process.

Other ways to level are so difficult, so slow, that the warmongers have the clear advantage. For example, Wish will grant experience points, but not many, and the Wishing caster pays a heavy price. Non-combat activities will grant experience, but at about 1/10th the rate of active adventuring or warmongering.
I think you're taking an amazingly narrow view of how the game world works by assuming the rules for playing the game as a party of PCs should describe how entire societies of non-PCs would operate.

Presumably actually researching new spells and discussing those experiments with other learned colleagues would be a better way to gain experience in magic -- but it would make for an awful game.

At any rate, skill at war is best learned in combat, except for one little problem -- people die in combat. That's why people practice martial arts -- and that's exactly what I'd expect ageless elves to do. They may learn to fight at one-tenth the rate of the orc hordes, but they can do it with no casualties. Centuries later, the whole elf legion is still alive, unmaimed, and very, very good with sword and bow.
Edena_of_Neith said:
War ... WAR ... destroys people. It turns young people into very old people, very quickly (to paraphrase real life war veterans.)
Modern, industrial war seems to psychologically scar modern, industrial people. It's not clear that it scarred Mongol pastoralists, for instance. At any rate, post-traumatic stress disorder is well outside the rules, which you seem to be very narrowly basing your argument on, even if it fits many people's notion of elves.
 

Slife

First Post
OK, so you say that if we use the Rules As Written as the sole basis for our discussion, elves will lose.

That is true. Anyone other than Pun-Pun will lose by RAW. Infinite planes makes his ascension inevitable, and once ascended there's nothing anyone else can do to stop him. Kobolds win, shoe's over.

'sides, XP isn't only awarded for kiling things.
 

mmadsen

First Post
Turjan said:
Investigations of skeletons from that time indicates that people were generally well nourished and comparatively healthy, except in times of plague. This point is also true for people from the countryside.

Yes, there were the occasional famines, plagues and wars. But those were the exception. The situation got much worse later, especially the early modern times.
Actually, the average human has increased in mass 50% and in longevity by 100% since the year 1800 (according to The Escape from Hunger and Premature Death by Robert Fogel). Much of the undeveloped world is still "stunted" by modern standards -- just look at the difference one generation can make for children born to Vietnamese parents in the US, or to Japanese parents in Japan, after the war and reconstruction.
 

Thornir Alekeg

Albatross!
Where does it say that warmongers rule the day? How does an NPC become a 7th level Expert in something? Did they kill a lot of things? No, they lived their lives, did their job better than average, overcame challenges for their occupation and gained experience. Did the King, who might be an 9th level Aristocrat get there by killing things? Probably not. But if power goes to the warmongers, as you claim, then why isn't every ruler a high level PC class?

You seem to have a particular need to make the game mechanics rule every aspect of the world. They aren't meant to. The game mechanics are there to give a method for players to advance their PCs in the game, not be a model for all aspects of the game civilization.

Obviously you are free to do whatever you wish with your game and world, but to make sweeping statements like elves should be extinct because of the game rules is downright silly to me.
 

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