The degrees of D&D - levels of character or levels of magic?

Quartz · Jul 3, 2007

There've been a couple of threads where it's been suggested that D&D breaks down into four main level-based categories:

1-5 Save yoursef / grim and gritty
6-10 Save the town / heroic
11-15 Save the country / Wuxia
16-20 Save the world / superheroic.

I'm just wondering if people aren't really conflating character levels with the availability of levels of magic?

Would it be better to put it as:

0-2 Grim and Gritty
3-4 Heroic (Breakpoint is introduction of Dispel Magic and Fireball)
5-6 Wuxia (Breakpoint is introduction of Raise Dead and Teleport)
7-9 Superheroic (Breakpoint is introduction of Limited Wish and Ressurrection)

Would you call a Ftr 14 / Wiz 6 a superheroic character if there were no spell effects above 3rd level?

Would you call a Bbn 6 / Cl 6 a Wuxia character?

The Blow Leprechaun · Jul 3, 2007

I agree with levels because I don't believe magic is the be-all and end-all of power in the D&D world. I think casters make better villains than heroes, anyway. Part of the heroic concept to me is an unflagging desire to do what's right. Wizards are all "I've used up my spells, let's rest for the day."

Dyir · Jul 3, 2007

I think some of the high-powered feel is due to skills as much as magic (and thus, from class levels). Characters with ridiculously high bonuses to certain skills can certainly make the game feel closer to the "wuxia/superhero" (such as Jump checks allowing the character to leap unrealistic distances, or a character with a Bluff bonus that is high enough that they can make someone believe almost anything, and so forth).

Patlin · Jul 3, 2007

The Blow Leprechaun said:
Wizards are all "I've used up my spells, let's rest for the day."

And Fighters are all "The Cleric's out of spells, let's rest for the day." That's an artifact of D&D resource management. We can save the world tomorrow, or die today for pressing on without adequate resources.

The Blow Leprechaun · Jul 3, 2007

Patlin said:
And Fighters are all "The Cleric's out of spells, let's rest for the day." That's an artifact of D&D resource management. We can save the world tomorrow, or die today for pressing on without adequate resources.

My characters have a history of conflict with the party cleric (seriously, the last 4 parties... different characters, different clerics, different players), so my fighters would never say that. Mostly they say, "You stupid cleric, why can't you heal anymore? What good are you!"

shilsen · Jul 3, 2007

Quartz said:
Would you call a Ftr 14 / Wiz 6 a superheroic character if there were no spell effects above 3rd level?

Absolutely. A Ftr 14/ WIz 6 could probably kill an entire army with the jawbone of an ass. That's pretty darn superheroic.

Would you call a Bbn 6 / Cl 6 a Wuxia character?

Quite possibly, though it would depend on both the mechanics and how the character was player.

Quartz · Jul 3, 2007

shilsen said:
Absolutely. A Ftr 14/ WIz 6 could probably kill an entire army with the jawbone of an ass. That's pretty darn superheroic.

Even if everything he has is a maximum of +2? He's going to be vastly less potent than your typical 20th level character.

Thaedrus · Jul 3, 2007

Still Superheroic.

So the Ftr 14/Cl 6 is a bad superhero, but he still takes like 20 solid whacks with a sword to take him down. Show me that in real life a I will be looking at an elephant. The point of the original discussion, from a different post no less, was that in most fantasy literature, the characters are normal humans, just a little more lucky/skilled/have a destiny to fulfill. Only when you start looking to wuxia or superhero genre stories do you get the "20th warhamer to the skull that still doesn't take down the character" that is high level D&D. Limiting the level of magic, the level of skills, the level of HP, the magical nature of gear (even my socks are +2!) will bring the characters back to human standards. This is probably most easily accomplished by only playing in the "Sweet Spot" level range that your group is most comfortable with. Often people find that this is the 5-9th level range for standard fantasy literature genres. This is not necessary, but does led itself to more closely replicating the stories of standard, non-TSR/WoTC, fantasy literature (Why does Gandalf not teleport?).

Victim · Jul 3, 2007

Quartz said:
Even if everything he has is a maximum of +2? He's going to be vastly less potent than your typical 20th level character.

He can still fly, create a barrier of wind to ward off arrows, and disappear. Besides, not all items would be limited to +2 - high end ability boosters are mostly just expensive, not any harder to create.

On top of being able to reliably kill heavily armored soldiers with his fist (without Imp Unarmed Strike and such).

shilsen · Jul 4, 2007

Quartz said:
Even if everything he has is a maximum of +2? He's going to be vastly less potent than your typical 20th level character.

That wasn't your question. Your question was whether such a character is superheroic. Which I think he is. A 20th lvl wizard might be more superheroic, but then some superheroes are stronger than others. The existence of Superman doesn't stop Spiderman from being a superhero. As pointed out by Thaedrus and Victim, a Ftr14/Wiz6 can do things far beyond the boundaries of human capability.

The degrees of D&D - levels of character or levels of magic?

Quartz

Hero

The Blow Leprechaun

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Dyir

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Patlin

Explorer

The Blow Leprechaun

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shilsen

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Quartz

Hero

Thaedrus

First Post

Victim

First Post

shilsen

Adventurer

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