E6: The Game Inside D&D

jensun said:

You could just remove arcane thesis on the basis that its brokety broke broke.

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Well, yeah, there's that – I'm not much for reserve feats* or Races of The Dragon (uh, Draconomicon, right?) either but that leads to a complicated discussion on feat and item houseruling.

*I still haven't gotten to put together an E6 campaign but I am sort of considering allowing one reserve feat as a capstone feat. Maybe just for sorcerers.

Imp said:

Keeping in the spirit of E6, I would tend to hard-cap metamagic effects (including those from items) at 3rd or maybe possibly 4th level spell slots, which would put the big metamagic effects right out. I don't know what the ideal spot is, but I certainly wouldn't let the metamagic stack to 9th.

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Thanks to everyone who has replied to my original question. The truth is that I love E6 and am running an E6 game right now (with some heavy modifications). I find that it opens up a lot of doors for character creation and actually enables certain interesting builds that just aren't possible in standard D&D.

Limiting the effective spell level for metamagicked spells might make sense, but it means banning a lot of feats (some of which were designed for E6 in the first place). For example all of the swift metamagic feats.

As for banning Arcane Thesis, it's mostly used in my example to boost the CL, and there are other ways to do that. Without AT things don't look much less potent -- even if this would prevent CL from going above 9th, you still get:

1. Swift split, sudden maximized, spellshard-empowered scorching ray (3 rays doing a total of 108 damage on average if they all hit)
2. Swift quickened, spellshard-empowered scorching ray (2 rays doing a total of 78 damage on average if they all hit)
3. 3 Conviction Points lets you cast a third spellshard-empowered scorching ray (78 more damage)

That's a total of 264 damage on average in one round. NOVA!

I guess you could rule that since there is only one quickened action allowed in a round, you can't swift twin and swift quicken in the same round, but with some investment of feats you CAN get sudden quicken which will enable all of this.

A few possibilities:

* Ban all of the sudden metamagic feats, considering them rolled into or replaced by the swift metamagic feats (not a bad idea really).

* Limit metamagic's ability to raise effective spell level in some way (double the original spell's level, for example). I'm not so sure about this one.

If you ban the sudden metamagic feats then the best you can do is a swift quickened scorching ray empowered by a spellshard, then followed up with another spellshard-empowered scorching ray and then another one cast via 3 Conviction Point expenditure. If Arcane Thesis is allowed, you can memorize three split scorching rays, then cast all three empowered via spellshard (one swift quickened, one normal, and one more with 3 Conviction Points) -- these will deal 156 damage each on average, for a total of about 468 damage in one round (if they all hit). If AT is banned, you can't split the rays and this drops to a "mere" 78 damage each, or 234 damage total (if each ray hits).

So banning the sudden metamagic feats makes this harder to do and do less damage but the potential for NOVA is still there.

Any comments or suggestions for limiting this further? As a DM I find it hard to just say "no it doesn't work" without having a systemic rule of some sort to base my decision on. I think 234 damage in one round is a bit excessive for an E6 game, although to be fair one would have to compare to what a twinked-out barbarian could do in one round as well.

- Ron ^*^

OK, I've thought about it for a bit and I believe I have a solution. Limit all spells to a maximum of one metamagic effect each, from any source.

If we do this, the best our twinkie could do by my reckoning (again assuming a CL of 11 for Scorching Ray) would be:

1. Sudden Maximized Scorching Ray (12d6 maximized to 72 damage)
2. Swift Quickened Scorching Ray (12d6 damage, average of 42 damage)
3. 3 CP to cast an Empowered Scorching Ray (via spellshard or memorized) -- 63 average damage

This deals a total of 177 damage on average.

Still a heck of a lot for a 7th level-equivalent character, but not incredibly over the top compared to what a twinked-out throwing rogue (for example) could do at a similar level if he also chose to nova.

What do you think?

- Ron ^*^

Err, just for reference, this is the specifics of the E6 variant I am using in my home game:

E6 General

• Characters progress in level as normal until reaching 6th level, at which point a bonus feat can be chosen for every 5000 experience points earned. The character must still be able to meet the requirements of these feats in order to take them.
• Characters also gain one hit point for every 5000 experience points earned after 6th level (two hit points if their BAB is +6), and they gain a +1 bonus to hit with all attacks for every 25000 experience points earned after 6th level.


Going Gestalt and Capstone Classes

• Upon reaching 6th level, each character chooses to either “go gestalt” or selects a “capstone class” (which he must have taken at least one level in).
• If a character chooses to “go gestalt”, he can choose to spend feats to acquire class abilities held by any classes that he has at least one level in. These class abilities include actual class abilities as well as spellcaster levels, BAB, and saving throws (+1 advancement per feat spent). He may never purchase class abilities that could not be earned by a character with six levels in the class in question. Prestige class abilities can be earned this way so long as the level of the PrC required to achieve them could possibly have been reached by a 6th level character.
• If a character chooses to select a capstone class, he may never spend feats to acquire class abilities as described above (not even in his capstone class). However, he is eligible to purchase up to three “capstone feats” that are tied to his capstone class. These feats typically grant abilities not attainable until after the 6th level of the capstone class. If a character has less than 6 levels in his capstone class, some of the abilities gained from his capstone feats may need to be modified to account for this.


Magic Items

• Artificers cannot use their abilities to emulate spells of higher than 3rd level. As a result, no magic items requiring spells of higher than 3rd level are available for purchase in the markets of Sharn or any other area.
• The caster level for the creation of any item can be lowered to the minimum level required to cast the spells needed to create it. Thus, any item or item enhancement that requires no spell higher than 3rd level in its creation can be found in the markets of Sharn and elsewhere, so long as its other requirements could be met by a 6th level character. Thus, Boots of Speed could be found for purchase even though their required Caster Level is officially 10th.
• Players may request otherwise uncraftable items to be placed as treasure, and I will make an honest effort to do so at an appropriate time as long as the items do not seem disruptive to the game (especially if they are central to the character’s concept). These “artifacts” may have been crafted long ago by giants, dragons, or even deities.


New E6 Feats

Ability Advancement (General)
Your training pays off, and one of your Abilities increases.
Prerequisite: Ability Training in the same ability.
Benefit: Choose one Ability. You gain a permanent +2 bonus to that ability. This bonus does not stack with the benefit from Ability Training.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Ability Boost (General)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: Choose an ability. You gain a permanent +1 bonus to that ability.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Ability Training (General)
You spend time honing one of your Abilities: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma.
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: Choose one Ability; treat that Ability as having a +2 bonus to its score for the purposes of Ability Checks and Skill Checks. This bonus does not count for any other use of that ability.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times, its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat it applies to another ability.

Expanded Caster Stamina (General)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: You gain one or more new spell slots, with spell levels totaling to half your caster level. Treat a 0th-level spell slot as one half a level. Thus, a sixth-level wizard could gain one 3rd level spell slot, or one 2nd level and one 1st level spell slots, or three new 1st level spell slots, etc. This feat cannot provide spell slots of a level higher than you can already cast.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it you gain more spell slots. An artificer can take the feat to gain extra infusion slots instead of spell slots.

Expanded Spell Knowledge (General)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: You learn one or more new spells known, with spell levels totaling to half your caster level. Treat a new 0th-level spell as having one half a level. Thus, a sixth-level sorcerer could learn one new 3rd level spell, or one new 2nd level and one new 1st level spells, or three new 1st level spells, etc. This feat cannot provide spells known of a level higher than you can already cast.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you take it you learn more new spells.


Heroic Spirit (General)
Benefit: Your Conviction point pool per session is raised to 7. You still gain only 6 points of Conviction for raising your Death Flag.
(Note: This feat replaces the Heroic Spirit feat from the ECS)

Master of Metamagic (Metamagic)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: As a swift action, you may apply a metamagic feat that you know to a spell you cast with no adjustment to the spell’s level. You must spend a number of conviction points equal to the number of levels the metamagic feat would have increased the spell’s slot level by had you applied it in the traditional way.
(Note: In no case may a spell be affected by this or any other effect, metamagic or otherwise, to such a degree that it would normally have to count as a spell of higher than 9th level. Note also that you must actually know the relevant metamagic feat in order to be able to apply it with Master of Metamagic – Swift and Sudden versions do not count)

Swift Metamagic (Metamagic)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: When you take this feat, select a metamagic feat that increases the effective level of the spell it is applied to by a set number no greater than one. As a swift action once per day, you may apply this metamagic feat to a spell you cast with no adjustment to the spell’s level.
Special: You may take this feat more than once, up to six times. Each time you take it, it applies to a different metamagic feat. Every time you take it you may increase the maximum set adjustment that your chosen metamagic feat may have by one. Thus, the third time you take this feat, you may choose to have it apply to the Maximize Spell metamagic feat.
(Note: In no case may a spell be affected by this or any other effect, metamagic or otherwise, to such a degree that it would normally have to count as a spell of higher than 9th level)

Swift Strikes (General)
Prerequisite: This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: The cost for you to take an extra standard action is reduced to 1 Conviction point if you use that action solely to make an attack. This will not work in conjunction with any form of spellcasting, such as Melf’s Acid Arrow.

Wondrous Rings (Item Creation)
Prerequisite: Craft Wondrous Item. This feat can only be taken as a bonus feat after 6th level.
Benefit: You treat rings as wondrous items for the purpose of meeting item creation prerequisites. You must still meet any other requirements for any rings you create.




Capstone Feats:

These feats are available as post-6th level feats for characters that have chosen their relevant classes as capstone classes. The third feats in each set can only be taken after at least one of the first two. Unless otherwise noted, no capstone feat has any other prerequisites. Some capstone feats (such as those granting spells) may be adjusted by the DM in cases where a character has less than 6 levels in their capstone class.

Artificer:
* Accomplished Craftsman: Your Craft Reserve renews itself to 150 points. In the future, this will happen every time you gain another feat.
* Metamagic Spell Completion (as the Artificer ability)
* Skill Mastery (as the Artificer ability)

Barbarian:
* Barbaric Toughness: You gain Damage Resistance 1/-
* Imp. Barbaric Toughness: Your DR increases to 3/- (Requires Barbaric Toughness)
* Battle Fury: You gain Greater Rage and Tireless Rage (as the Barbarian abilities)

Bard:
* Bardic Inspiration (Inspire Courage at +2 instead of +1) (Requires 3 ranks in Perform)
* Choose 1 3rd level Bard spell from a list supplied by the DM. You may cast this spell once per day.
* Inspire Greatness (as the Bardic ability – requires 9 ranks in Perform)

Cleric:
* Extra Domain: Choose a Domain in the portfolio of your god that you do not already have access to. You have access to this Domain, including its granted power.
* Heroic Caster: Your Caster Level is raised by +1 (to 7th) for all purposes other than spells known and spells per day.
* Heroic Spell: Choose 1 4th level Cleric spell from a list supplied by the DM. You may cast this spell 1/day. You may use your Spontaneous Casting ability with this spell.

Druid:
* Ferocious Slayer: You may take the Ferocious Slayer form when Shapeshifting.
* Heroic Caster: Your Caster Level is raised by +1 (to 7th) for all purposes other than spells known and spells per day.
* Heroic Spell: Choose 1 4th level Druid spell from a list supplied by the DM. You may cast this spell 1/day. You may use your Spontaneous Casting ability with this spell.

Fighter:
* Martial Veteran: You gain any feat requiring a +8 BAB and/or 8 levels of Fighter whose prerequisites you otherwise meet. You can take Martial Veteran multiple times.
* Greater Weapon Specialization in any one weapon
* Martial Prowess: When you make a full attack, you get a bonus iterative attack, which has a BAB of 5 less than the lowest BAB iterative attack you would normally have.

Monk:
* Precise Flurry: You take no penalty to hit when flurrying
* Improved Evasion (as the Monk ability)
* Unarmed Prowess: You gain Greater Flurry (as the Monk ability) and your Unarmed damage goes up by one step.

Paladin:
* Holy Warrior: Choose one 2nd level Paladin spell from a list supplied by the DM. You can cast this spell once per day. In addition, your weapon attacks count as Good aligned for the purpose of overcoming DR.
* Exalted Might: Your Paladin level is treated as 8th for the purposes of the Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, and Turn Undead abilities.
* Righteous Knight: Your Paladin level is treated as 8th for the purpose of the Special Mount ability.

Ranger:
* Mystic Woodsman: Choose one 2nd level Ranger spell from a list supplied by the DM. You can cast this spell once per day. In addition, you gain the Woodland Stride and Swift Tracker Ranger abilities.
* Evasion (as the Ranger ability)
* 3rd Favored Enemy or Combat Style Mastery. This Feat can be taken more than once.

Rogue:
* +1d6 Sneak Attack damage
* Improved Uncanny Dodge (as the Rogue ability)
* Roguish Ability: You gain any one of the 10th level Rogue special abilities. You can take Roguish Ability multiple times; each time you take it, you gain a new special ability.

Sorcerer:
* Heroic Caster: Your Caster Level is raised by +1 (to 7th) for all purposes other than spells known and spells per day.
* Arcane Master: You gain two feats from the Wizard Bonus Feat list.
* Heroic Spell: Choose 1 4th level Sorcerer spell from a list supplied by the DM. You may cast this spell 3/day.

Wizard:
* Heroic Caster: Your Caster Level is raised by +1 (to 7th) for all purposes other than spells known and spells per day.
* Arcane Master: You gain two feats from the Wizard Bonus Feat list.
* Heroic Spell: Choose 2 4th level Wizard spells from a list supplied by the DM. Each day, you may choose one of these spells to prepare and cast. If you are a specialist wizard and one of your chosen spells is from your specialized school, you can prepare it an additional time per day.

The one-metamagic-rule idea seems graceful enough. I haven't played or seriously looked at Conviction points yet but that seems to be a big contributor to nova-ing there.

Your version of E6 reads as basically equivalent to E8, power-level-wise. I'm just mentioning that because I floated the idea of an E8 game somewhere relatively early in this thread (I think) and was met with some pretty good reasons why E6 was a better cutoff point – fewer unbeatable magic effects, greater viability for low-level threats to epic characters, I don't remember all of them – just thought I should mention it.

Imp said:

The one-metamagic-rule idea seems graceful enough. I haven't played or seriously looked at Conviction points yet but that seems to be a big contributor to nova-ing there.

Your version of E6 reads as basically equivalent to E8, power-level-wise. I'm just mentioning that because I floated the idea of an E8 game somewhere relatively early in this thread (I think) and was met with some pretty good reasons why E6 was a better cutoff point – fewer unbeatable magic effects, greater viability for low-level threats to epic characters, I don't remember all of them – just thought I should mention it.

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I agree that my rules make characters that are more powerful than standard E6 (and closer to E8). Allowing players to essentially "gestalt" via feats means that they'll be probably closer to level 8 equivalent after those first 5 feats are gained. It's worth mentioning that the list of accepted 4th level spells available for capstone feats are hand-picked by the DM (me) with an eye towards cutting out any effects that can only be overcome via magic (so no Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, for example).

I also agree about Conviction Points contributing the the Nova effect for spellcasters. Another idea I had had was of ruling that the standard action buyable with 3 CP could not be used to cast spells. Would have to run the math on that one.

I've also realized that a lot of the "nova" stuff I'm seeing involved one spell -- Scorching Ray. That spell may need a little tinkering to reign it in.

The way I see it the main contributing factors are:

1. High caster levels attainable via feats and other means such as Domain Wizard
2. 3 (or more?) spells per round can be cast thanks to Conviction and Swift Quicken
3. Stacking metamagic effects to produce 9th-equivalent level spells

Limiting to one metamagic effect per spell takes care of #3. The question of whether I would need to go further depends on how possible nova power stacks up compared to that of other classes.

It's worth mentioning that my original examples did not include the possibility of a rogue/wizard "gestalt" going for 3d6 sneak attacks (via Blink) on every scorching ray. That kicks damage into the stratosphere.

- Ron ^*^

Speaking of magic items in an E6 game, I was actually thinking of writing up a bunch of magic items specific for E6 using the Artificer's Handbook rules. AH rules have a different magic item mechanic, and it relies on the number of spell slots. So, using AH, you can't actually create a 3rd level wand at 5th level. You have to be at least 7th level, unless you try creating one with a lot fewer charges. Would there be interest in such a thing?

A secondary question - is all the E6/E8 rules collated into a single PDF document somewhere?

Another point is that the "nova" build I mentioned works just fine even in standard E6 (provided the needed books are allowed). My system does make it easier for chaingun throwing sneak attackers to get obnoxious, though.

Today I'm thinking that maybe the best way to go about this is to just impose an arbitrary "damage cap" on how much damage a character can deal to any given target in a round. Maybe 125 points? This is an even simpler rule than limiting the number of metamagic feats allowed and it strikes right to the heart of the matter. Once it's in place, I don't have to spend any more time houseruling this loophole and that loophole because the players will just avoid ludicrous "nova" builds on their own (there would be no advantage in having them).

?

- Ron ^*^

Yep, I think I'm gonna go with a damage cap of 100 points that extra damage from critical hits doesn't count towards. The way I figure it, a plain old fighter with a standard build (including Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and maybe Iron Will if he's smart) and a strength of 18 using a greatsword can do close to this in one round if he's buffed...

2d6(sword)+6(strength)+2(magic)+2(specialization)= 17 points per hit on average

2 attacks (BAB) +1 (haste) +1 (conviction) = 4 attacks if he "novas"

Close to 80 damage in a round if he hits with everything, and a buff or two like Bull's Strength or bard song can easily kick this into the 100 range.

I figure if a straight fighter can do it there's no point restricting anyone else from doing it too -- so 100 points, not counting critical hits, seems about right to me.

If I'd wanted to get complex with the rules, then looking at the nova builds I've seen I'd have to have ruled:

* Only one metamagic effect per spell
* Conviction cannot be spent to cast an extra spell per round
* TWF will not stack with Rapid Shot
* There is a set limit to effective caster level (probably 10th)

- Ron ^*^

der_kluge said:

Would there be interest in such a thing?

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In general, I don't know. As far as I'm concerned though, yes. Hopefully there'll be others too, because well, it'd be great to see what you come up with. Probably really handy stuff, and for a new E6 game of mine in particular.

A secondary question - is all the E6/E8 rules collated into a single PDF document somewhere?

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Eh, can't help you here, sorry. Anyone else know? Ryan, perhaps?