Devices in Arrays

Another contentious issue concerning arrays which I think should be formalised.

Proposal: Individual slots within an Array may not be given the Device flaw.

This appears to be legal according to RAW but it is very unclear what happens when a device which is also an AP is removed from a character. Who can use the device? Can the character still use the other slots in their array? To save this confusion I propose they not be permitted.

This is not to say that a Device can not contain an Array, (eg a blaster with multiple settings or a car that turns into a battle suit) but a Array should not contain a Device.

Characters with Devices within Arrays: Circe; Gun Monkey, Mecha Musume

AGREE.

To paraphrase a poster on the ATT, the cost savings in Device are based on a relatively uncommon but very severe effect: that the powers in the Device can be removed in a way that isn't easy to reverse on the fly. But when you have it on an array, even on those occasions where it does occur, very little of your capability is actually reduced -- you can just switch to a different array slot -- so you're getting a rather large amount of extra points for a very minimal typical loss, given the relative infrequency of the event.

I would say that having a Device that grants the power feat (Alternate Power) for an existing Array would be fine (and such a Device should be Restricted, either to those with that base power or to that particular character only), though. Like a "focusing crystal" that gives a Telepath access to the Emotion Control, Illusion, Mental Blast, Mind Control, and Stun powers as APs; a Device restricted only to people with Telepathy. Or Cyclops's visor -- without it, he's got Blast 12, but with it, he can do Penetrating Blast 8, or Autofire Blast 8, or Blast 10 (Accurate 3, Precise), or Blast 11 (Ricochet, Split Attack), or Blast 11 (Homing 2); a Hard to Lose Device with 5 pp worth of effects (the 5 APs), Restricted only to Cyclops (6pp total). (Yes, at low levels it can actually wind up costing a bit more doing it this way than just having the APs on the base power, but it quickly evens out as you add more APs. And, IMO, character concept is worth sacrificing a few power points.)

HoV--if it grants the power feat Alternate Power to some arbitrary power X, then it is already de facto restricted to a character with power X without paying for restricted--other people can take the Device, but it does nothing for them because it fizzles without the appropriate target power. Similarly, a device that lets you use ESP 2x faster does nothing for someone without ESP. You don't need to pay for restricted for that to happen, it's inherent in the definition of the effect.

Hmmm, actually HoV, your idea gave me a marvelous idea that is pretty much exactly how I think of Sierra's devices working (powered on her innate magic). Thanks! I never ever thought of my new idea until I read yours (it's the reverse version of yours). It costs a bit more than currently, but I like it a lot more.

You have a 1 point in Device, right? And the Alternate power off Sierra's main would be something like "Lend Energy to the Ring of Antaeus". And that Boosts the Device to its level of power. The totally awesome thing about that is that if a weaker PL 8 guy got his hands on the Device and took the same alternate power feat, he would get a lesser effect from the device (exactly as I envisioned!) because he has less power to give. Also, it totally fixes the problem of someone stealing it. If they do that, they get a 1 rank Device. I seriously like this idea a lot, and it fixes the problems too.

Thanks so much, HoV! Having the Device and power separate but interacting is simply brilliant (even if the exact suggestion you gave needed a bit of tweaking to be viable, you did the hard part).

Sometimes me brains do work!

However, yours is a perfect case of why Restricted could be needed. For Circe, the AP would be off her massive Transform... but if the device is powered by the magical energy she channels into it, then anyone with any magic-descriptor power should be able to use it (at varying levels of effectiveness), but not someone with a Mutant or psionic-descriptored Transform.

Hand of Vecna said:

Sometimes me brains do work!

However, yours is a perfect case of why Restricted could be needed. For Circe, the AP would be off her massive Transform... but if the device is powered by the magical energy she channels into it, then anyone with any magic-descriptor power should be able to use it (at varying levels of effectiveness), but not someone with a Mutant or psionic-descriptored Transform.

Click to expand...

Yep. It was easy to go backwards from your suggestion to the new one. Sierra is down 2 points to pay for that right now, though. What I can do is, since she doesn't need the Ring of Antaeus for this adventure (we have a tank--literally a tank!) and since she's never used the ring anyway, I can just pretend she does not have it and rewrite the Diamond the new way.

Of course, I'd like to have the change preapproved before I do it, since she will otherwise move from approved to unapproved and thus, by the letter of the law, other bad things might happen to her from which her approved status is making her immune.

Hand of Vecna said:

Sometimes me brains do work!

However, yours is a perfect case of why Restricted could be needed. For Circe, the AP would be off her massive Transform... but if the device is powered by the magical energy she channels into it, then anyone with any magic-descriptor power should be able to use it (at varying levels of effectiveness), but not someone with a Mutant or psionic-descriptored Transform.

Click to expand...

To catch your edit--yep. Going my way totally requires Restricted. I would expect that the initial 1 point in Device would be used to buy Restricted. It's an extremely elegant solution that fits together like a jigsaw puzzle

However, when you go the other way that you suggested, you actually do not always need Restricted.

You'll need to submit your edited version for approval.

Speaking of, since "Check Required" has yet to be approved (1 Yes, 3 No), you also need to re-do Circe's ESP. Especially since, as is, it's not a limiting flaw for her (a DC 19 Knowledge/Arcana check, and she's got +30 skill modifier when her Limited Omniscience slot is active [due to the Enhanced Intelligence], so she cannot fail the check. She couldn't fail the check even without the Enhanced Intelligence, since without it her Knowledge/Arcana check is +18, so she passes even rolling a 1).

The Limited Flaw on her Burrowing ("only when in contact with the ground") also needs to be removed, since that is in no way a Flaw for that power (in fact, it's the definition of the power, movement through the ground).

Also, we've yet to say one way or the other whether or not her approved status makes her immune to any of these (potential) changes. And, as mentioned in the General Discussion II thread, there's some debate among the Judges as to whether or not her new improved (+7pp) version was fully approved.

Hand of Vecna said:

You'll need to submit your edited version for approval.

Speaking of, since "Check Required" has yet to be approved (1 Yes, 3 No), you also need to re-do Circe's ESP. Especially since, as is, it's not a limiting flaw for her (a DC 19 Knowledge/Arcana check, and she's got +30 skill modifier when her Limited Omniscience slot is active [due to the Enhanced Intelligence], so she cannot fail the check. She couldn't fail the check even without the Enhanced Intelligence, since without it her Knowledge/Arcana check is +18, so she passes even rolling a 1).

The Limited Flaw on her Burrowing ("only when in contact with the ground") also needs to be removed, since that is in no way a Flaw for that power (in fact, it's the definition of the power, movement through the ground).

Also, we've yet to say one way or the other whether or not her approved status makes her immune to any of these (potential) changes. And, as mentioned in the General Discussion II thread, there's some debate among the Judges as to whether or not her new improved (+7pp) version was fully approved.

Click to expand...

Don't worry about the Burrowing yet since the ring will be temporarily removed until she gets some more points, though you are correct--I wasn't paying attention to that because I basically made a list of what she would *keep* when off the ground, and then just put everything else down for Limited, not realising that I got Burrowing in there.

As to Limited Omniscience skill checks, that's fine, but I also want to grab 2 points off of Enhanced Intelligence and place them in Mental Quickness so that it can actually be closer to as quick as I'd like it to be. The extra points can be grabbed by adding the Distracting flaw to the ESP--then some time later, once she has enough points for Mind Reading to have its own home instead of shacking up with the rest of Limited Omniscience, I can just remove that flaw.

Sounds easy--if that's all it takes to get her approved (and if Lesser Polyglot or the Benefit feat are somehow also contentious issues, I'm pretty screwed ), I can fix it right now.

Since it overrides your normal senses, ESP already has aspects of the Distracting flaw, so it can't be applied.

My only issue with her "Lesser Polylgot" is that, if that's trying to go for a "be understood by as many people as possible with only four languages" thing, then it should have Arabic, English, Mandarin Chinese, and Spanish [or English, Hindustani, Mandarin Chinese and Spanish, depending on who you ask]. If it's just the "she speaks lots of languages" thing, it's cool as-is (though I would ask why it's in amongst her powers, as an Enhanced Skill, rather than being an actual skill). Not knowing the concept behind that power, I don't know which is more appropriate.

I'd also ask what "Mastery of the Mind" (mentioned under her Languages, and which seems to imply some sort of Comprehend effect) is, since it's not listed anywhere under her Powers.

Speaking of "not knowing the concepts behind her stuff," I'd say Circe's lack of background/history/"fluff" text is her biggest impediment to being approved. As is, she's just a block of stats, and a block of stats is not a character. It's fine to not want the PC's to know, but the Judges do need to know this, and it's your responsibility to make sure we have that information, either by e-mailing all the Judges, or just posting it in an sblock in the char post (perhaps with a note saying "Judge's Eyes Only" or somesuch).