WyzardWhately
First Post
Cross-Posted from RPG.net
The following is mostly outright speculation. We have some reasons to believe that defense values are in rather than saves, but the condition track is just something I'd *like* to see.
There have been statements from the WotC employees that 4E is moving away from spells that are save-or-suck/save-or-die, and moving more toward spells oriented toward running the bad guys out of HP. I am, quite frankly, deeply uncomfortable with this. Sleep, Charm and their ilk are central to the D&D experience for me. Wizards need to have ways of solving their problems that don't involve violence, much as rogues do, and fighters should at least consider looking into. However, I also see where WotC is coming from with this. The save-or-lose spells make combat highly unpredictable, the very thing ablative HP is supposed to avoid.
I'd like to assume there are a lot of guys like me out there, who would feel much less desire to buy their product if these options are absent, and that the designers are aware of our presence as part of their potential customer base. So, I have asked myself, is there a way to keep both the spell effects I lust after and an HP-based model for defeating the bad guys?
I kind of think there is, and I've hypothesized a couple different ways it could work.
Example 1: HP comparison. This is kind of like good old Power Word: Kill. You use it on a target. If the target has less than 100 HP at the current time, it dies. Now, there can be some variations on this theme. Like, for a sleep spell, you could make a damage roll and any target with less HP than that would immediately go to sleep, but not lose the HP. Alternately, you compare against their max HP rather than their current HP. And you could have a roll to hit v. their Will Defense, if you like. There's a variety of possible permutations, but I'm not going to work through them all, since you can figure it out easily enough.
Example 2: Condition Track. This is actually the option I like. Maybe even the option I have a deep unrequited love for, since I like the condition track. When you hit the bad guys with weird effects like sleep/charm/dominate/whatever, it pushes them down the condition track. Maybe a step, maybe two, maybe more, maybe it depends on what you roll against the appropriate defense value. So, even if you try to hit them with a charm spell but they shrug it off, if you hit their defense it could still stun and confuse them as strange emotions rush through their brain. Represented by the fact that they accrue some penalties until they shake it off. Ultimate success is measured by how far the condition track they go. Dominate, frex, if you push them down past the fifth one, and they would normally go unconscious, they instead stop getting the penalties and become your loyal slave, just another cog in your murder machine.
Example 3: System Shift. Charm gives you big bonuses to diplomacy against that target if you beat his will defense, Dominate gives you access to the weird high-level persuasion-enhancing talents the rogue class gets, temporarily and regarding only a single target. Something like this.
I have some other thoughts on the Condition Track, regarding its possible inclusion. It's pretty tough to push low-level characters very far down it, because they die first. It's also a pain in the ass to keep track of HP for the 20 or so goblins we'll apparently now be able to fight with first-level PCs.
Given those premises, the condition track could be great for keeping track of minions, as instead of HP they might be only up/down on the condition track, somewhat like how Feng Shui works. This would mean that if, say, Turn Undead pushes you down the condition track, it would work fan-freaking-tastic on minion undead, who get turned for a single 'push' down the track and flee/are destroyed, but is less likely to work well on the Master Vampire, who it might take several attempts to turn all the way. Even that guy, turning is worthwhile because you can push him down it and give him penalties, or maybe even push him all the way with repeated attempts. You know, after the first few he might only be at -1 or -2, but that big -5 and -10 will mess up even a ten-century-old Lord of the Thirsty Dead.
Now, I know I'm totally wanking here, but it's relatively consistent with what we've seen and also is, IMHO, kind of awesome. And I desperately want 4E to be a game I can love.
The following is mostly outright speculation. We have some reasons to believe that defense values are in rather than saves, but the condition track is just something I'd *like* to see.
There have been statements from the WotC employees that 4E is moving away from spells that are save-or-suck/save-or-die, and moving more toward spells oriented toward running the bad guys out of HP. I am, quite frankly, deeply uncomfortable with this. Sleep, Charm and their ilk are central to the D&D experience for me. Wizards need to have ways of solving their problems that don't involve violence, much as rogues do, and fighters should at least consider looking into. However, I also see where WotC is coming from with this. The save-or-lose spells make combat highly unpredictable, the very thing ablative HP is supposed to avoid.
I'd like to assume there are a lot of guys like me out there, who would feel much less desire to buy their product if these options are absent, and that the designers are aware of our presence as part of their potential customer base. So, I have asked myself, is there a way to keep both the spell effects I lust after and an HP-based model for defeating the bad guys?
I kind of think there is, and I've hypothesized a couple different ways it could work.
Example 1: HP comparison. This is kind of like good old Power Word: Kill. You use it on a target. If the target has less than 100 HP at the current time, it dies. Now, there can be some variations on this theme. Like, for a sleep spell, you could make a damage roll and any target with less HP than that would immediately go to sleep, but not lose the HP. Alternately, you compare against their max HP rather than their current HP. And you could have a roll to hit v. their Will Defense, if you like. There's a variety of possible permutations, but I'm not going to work through them all, since you can figure it out easily enough.
Example 2: Condition Track. This is actually the option I like. Maybe even the option I have a deep unrequited love for, since I like the condition track. When you hit the bad guys with weird effects like sleep/charm/dominate/whatever, it pushes them down the condition track. Maybe a step, maybe two, maybe more, maybe it depends on what you roll against the appropriate defense value. So, even if you try to hit them with a charm spell but they shrug it off, if you hit their defense it could still stun and confuse them as strange emotions rush through their brain. Represented by the fact that they accrue some penalties until they shake it off. Ultimate success is measured by how far the condition track they go. Dominate, frex, if you push them down past the fifth one, and they would normally go unconscious, they instead stop getting the penalties and become your loyal slave, just another cog in your murder machine.
Example 3: System Shift. Charm gives you big bonuses to diplomacy against that target if you beat his will defense, Dominate gives you access to the weird high-level persuasion-enhancing talents the rogue class gets, temporarily and regarding only a single target. Something like this.
I have some other thoughts on the Condition Track, regarding its possible inclusion. It's pretty tough to push low-level characters very far down it, because they die first. It's also a pain in the ass to keep track of HP for the 20 or so goblins we'll apparently now be able to fight with first-level PCs.
Given those premises, the condition track could be great for keeping track of minions, as instead of HP they might be only up/down on the condition track, somewhat like how Feng Shui works. This would mean that if, say, Turn Undead pushes you down the condition track, it would work fan-freaking-tastic on minion undead, who get turned for a single 'push' down the track and flee/are destroyed, but is less likely to work well on the Master Vampire, who it might take several attempts to turn all the way. Even that guy, turning is worthwhile because you can push him down it and give him penalties, or maybe even push him all the way with repeated attempts. You know, after the first few he might only be at -1 or -2, but that big -5 and -10 will mess up even a ten-century-old Lord of the Thirsty Dead.
Now, I know I'm totally wanking here, but it's relatively consistent with what we've seen and also is, IMHO, kind of awesome. And I desperately want 4E to be a game I can love.
