D&D 4E 4E -- More or Less Vancian?

Werebat · Dec 25, 2007

Sure, the drifting away from Vancian memorization of spells might make you think that D&D is drifting further away from the works of Vance, but I say the emphasis on the "points of light" structure of civilization brings 4E much more in line with the Dying Earth, at least. What say you?

Perhaps 4E will include pelgrane and deodands...

- Ron ^*^

Gloombunny · Dec 25, 2007

I think 4e magic will be more "Vancian" than any prior edition of D&D magic.

Gygaxian magic is not much at all like Vance's.

Xethreau · Dec 26, 2007

I kind of like Rowlingese magic, where all your abilities are sort of weak (in terms of damage), require a focus, but all spells are at will (more or less.)

jdrakeh · Dec 26, 2007

Gloombunny said:
Gygaxian magic is not much at all like Vance's.

This is true. Default D&D magic only really mirrors Rhilato's need to memorize spells, not the extemporaneous magic of Cugel (who could cast spells from memory with study, though only managed to due so fallibly after rushed research), the science-assisted magic of Turjan, the power of names (such as that exhibited by Chun the Unavoidable), or the far-reaching alteration of perception achieved by Rogol Domedonfors.

Werebat · Dec 26, 2007

Gloombunny said:
I think 4e magic will be more "Vancian" than any prior edition of D&D magic.

Gygaxian magic is not much at all like Vance's.

It could be, although Vance does use spell memorization. You don't see Vancian wizards walking around with umpteen spells in their heads, though. Not even the really powerful ones. Those guys seem to limit themselves to a small number of powerful spells like the Excellent Prismatic Spray.

However, I was talking about the social structure more than the mechanics of magic. Points of Light seems to pretty well describe the "civilization" of the Dying Earth. DE would actually make a pretty cool campaign setting.

- Ron ^*^

jdrakeh · Dec 26, 2007

Werebat said:
It could be, although Vance does use spell memorization.

Only one of the DE stories makes prominant use of this magical aspect (i.e., memorizing spells that vanish from the mind when cast), that featuring Rhialto. It sees no mention elsewhere, that I can recall. Magi such as Iucounu appear to cast spells extemporaneously, while the powerful Pandelume appears to delve into magics that border on superscience.

Warbringer · Dec 26, 2007

I wonder, pre-vance why did a grimoire even exist in folk lore as an iconic of forbidden knowledge... even pre-enlightenment

I also wonder that is spellbooks (read memorization) are gone, does this mean that arcane casters cannot change their spells? Really interested to see the magic system

Cthulhudrew · Dec 26, 2007

Werebat said:
... but I say the emphasis on the "points of light" structure of civilization brings 4E much more in line with the Dying Earth, at least. What say you?

Well, there is a god named Ioun now...

ObsidianCrane · Dec 26, 2007

Werebat said:
Sure, the drifting away from Vancian memorization of spells might make you think that D&D is drifting further away from the works of Vance, but I say the emphasis on the "points of light" structure of civilization brings 4E much more in line with the Dying Earth, at least. What say you?

Perhaps 4E will include pelgrane and deodands...

- Ron ^*^

The Points of Light idea is not tied to Vance really.

Heck Tolkien's Middle Earth follows this model - the Grey Havens, The Shire, Bree, Rivendel, Rohan, the Lonely Mountain, Gondor - all are "Points of Light" in the wild basically. Some are clearly larger than many of the ideas of 4E's Points of Light seen so far, but there is a lot more "wild" than "civilised" in Tolkien's works.

There are many other works that mirror this to a greater or lesser extent.

WayneLigon · Dec 26, 2007

Warbringer said:
I wonder, pre-vance why did a grimoire even exist in folk lore as an iconic of forbidden knowledge... even pre-enlightenment

Wizards have always had a reputation as wise, learned men. Thus, books.

D&D 4E 4E -- More or Less Vancian?

Werebat

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Gloombunny

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Xethreau

Josh Gentry - Author, Minister in Training

jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock

Werebat

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jdrakeh

Front Range Warlock

Warbringer

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Cthulhudrew

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ObsidianCrane

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WayneLigon

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