D&D 4E 4E -- More or Less Vancian?

[Gloombunny]

Only one of the DE stories makes prominant use of this magical aspect (i.e., memorizing spells that vanish from the mind when cast), that featuring Rhialto. It sees no mention elsewhere, that I can recall. Magi such as Iucounu appear to cast spells extemporaneously, while the powerful Pandelume appears to delve into magics that border on superscience.

Spell memorization plays a large role in the Turjan stories, particularly the one with Mazirian.

The reason I say 4e will be more Vancian is that Vance's wizards could only memorize a handful of extremely powerful spells, and for the most part relied on magic items and mundane skills to see them through danger. 4e wizards may have at-will magic missiles insteads of tubes of blue concentrate, but the overall effect will be more like a Vance wizard than any previous D&D version.

 

[kennew142]

I wonder, pre-vance why did a grimoire even exist in folk lore as an iconic of forbidden knowledge... even pre-enlightenment

I also wonder that is spellbooks (read memorization) are gone, does this mean that arcane casters cannot change their spells? Really interested to see the magic system

Traditionally, wizards learn spells from old grimoires; they don't need them to prepare spells each day. That's a D&Dism.

I'm hoping that spellcasters will still be able to learn rituals from grimoires.

 

[erf_beto]

I wonder, pre-vance why did a grimoire even exist in folk lore as an iconic of forbidden knowledge... even pre-enlightenment

I also wonder that is spellbooks (read memorization) are gone, does this mean that arcane casters cannot change their spells? Really interested to see the magic system

AFAIK, in witchcraft, there's the Book of Shadows, the spellbook equivalent, that is more like a journal with all bits of information the witch gathers in her lifetime, like dreams, things that she learned about the world, memories, stories she heard, but also the properties of herbs and reagents, and spells and rituals. Even the Bible and other religious documents could be seen as spellbooks (eeerr, prayerbooks): there are stories about the prophets and the days of old, but also prayers to call God and the angels for protection, strength, slaying of enemies, etc.

I suppose you could learn a lot from these 'spellbooks' (tome?), but it's not anything like the recipe book '1 spell per page' of D&D. These books might teach you a new philosophy, a new way of looking into the (known or unseen) world... important steps for a learning wizard.

And even in Hogwarts, where magic is a lot like 'point your wand, speak magic word', you still need 7 years to graduate - you can't just memorize the index of spellbooks!

As for D&D, I actually like the versatility of the wizard: when he's prepared, he can take on any challenge. Of course, that can lead to 'overpowered munchkin' and 'spotlight hogger', but I dont want to see it completely removed in 4E. I suppose they'll be using the new 'ritual' mechanics (whatever that is) to accomplish this, but I wonder if you could keep a spell/power book and 'retrain' your per day/encounter/round powers when needed.

 

[jasin]

Perhaps 4E will include pelgrane and deodands...

One can only hope!

Nice to see you here, since you seem to be missing from rgfd lately!

 

[Werebat]

One can only hope!

Nice to see you here, since you seem to be missing from rgfd lately!

Hey, Jasin -- good to see you too!

Yeah, I never did find a Usenet reader I liked after my old one died (also -- rgfd seems pretty dead lately). I spent a lot of time over on the Wizards boards, got the CharOp gnomes' panties in a bunch, and ended up coming here to check this out. It feels pretty comfortable here.

Given my druthers I'd still be over on rgfd and so would everyone else, but it seems human nature to value the ability to control others over one's own freedom, so there you go. The masses prefer moderation.

I was wondering when I'd run into someone else from the "old days"!

- Ron ^*^

 

[jdrakeh]

Spell memorization plays a large role in the Turjan stories, particularly the one with Mazirian.

Hmm. . . could be. I haven't read the story in question for roughly seven years. I honestly only recall spell memorization being specifically mentioned in Rhialto's story (along with ioun stones, etc). Maybe it's time to break open the vault of timeless fantasy again

 

[Mercule]

Wizards have always had a reputation as wise, learned men. Thus, books.

Plus, reference. I'm a pretty good programmer and a pretty good gamer. I still have shelves and shelves of books on either discipline.

Some things (code a basic web page, create a first-level fighter) I can do at will and always have that knowledge with me. Other things (write an assembly that makes heavy use of reflection or create a 25th level gestalt swordsage/binder who is a fiendish half-amethyst dragon raptoran ghost) require that I have a book in front of me, at least for part of the time.

On a side note, I could do without the race, but a gestalt swordsage/binder actually sounds pretty cool.

 

[Werebat]

Hmm. . . could be. I haven't read the story in question for roughly seven years. I honestly only recall spell memorization being specifically mentioned in Rhialto's story (along with ioun stones, etc). Maybe it's time to break open the vault of timeless fantasy again

I have not yet read Rhialto's story and I have encountered a few examples of spell memorization in Vance (working my way through the second Cugel book now). I do remember Cugel memorizing spells in an imperfect way, and figured him to be performing something akin to rogue use of UMD (or the 1E rogue ability to use wizard scrolls).

[Edit -- and he memorizes spells from books acquired from Iucounu the Laughing Mage, which implies that this is how that character casts as well.]

[Further Edit -- I also distinctly remember a section where Cugel rescues a mage from the warrens of some rat folk by use of a spell from the mage's magic book, and the mage needs Cugel to return his book to him so he can memorize spells and be able to cast again. I don't remember how he gets Cugel to hand the book over, but he does.]

I have to say it has been a fascinating read, not only due to the fact that every once in a while I say "Aha! THAT'S where they got the idea for that!" concerning some facet of D&D.

One of the earlier stories I read -- perhaps it was with Turjan -- has a rival wizard trying to catch a female "construct" who leads him on a chase in an effort to free her master. This wizard clearly memorizes the spells that he casts, as he mentions the spells that are in his head more than once.

Other references to spellcasting I just sort of assumed involved memorization -- even if it doesn't say one way or another. If there are other methods of casting they are not explained very well, if at all.

- Ron ^*^