'Build' Madness.

F5 · Feb 26, 2008

I'm guessing that there must be more Rogue powers in the PHB than those listed in the article. With that in mind, I'm guessing that the powers that were listed were picked SPECIFICALLY because they support the build options that the article was meant to highlight. The fact that you seem shoe-horned into one of two "optional" skillsets is only because the article lists skills that fit the bill. I'm still taking a wait-and-see approach.

I may have missed something, somewhere, but what's with the “2[W]+Dex…” notation? Does that mean each weapon has a die type (longswords are d8, etc), rather than a set amount of damage, and this skill does two dice of whatever weapon you’re using, plus your dex bonus?

Cadfan · Feb 26, 2008

F5 said:
I may have missed something, somewhere, but what's with the “2[W]+Dex…” notation? Does that mean each weapon has a die type (longswords are d8, etc), rather than a set amount of damage, and this skill does two dice of whatever weapon you’re using, plus your dex bonus?

That is currently one of the great mysteries of the 4e rules.

ThirdWizard · Feb 26, 2008

F5 said:
I'm guessing that there must be more Rogue powers in the PHB than those listed in the article.

Check out the builds, they list 1st level powers that are not spelled out in the article! (Riposte Strike & Sly Flourish)

I may have missed something, somewhere, but what's with the “2[W]+Dex…” notation? Does that mean each weapon has a die type (longswords are d8, etc), rather than a set amount of damage, and this skill does two dice of whatever weapon you’re using, plus your dex bonus?

Have you seen the miniature pictures? It probably represents the little sword symbols or something like that, as shorthand for whatever a "normal" attack's damage is.

Irda Ranger · Feb 26, 2008

F5 said:
I may have missed something, somewhere, but what's with the “2[W]+Dex…” notation? Does that mean each weapon has a die type (longswords are d8, etc), rather than a set amount of damage, and this skill does two dice of whatever weapon you’re using, plus your dex bonus?

We think so. Per the Paladin Smites article, 2[W]+Cha is described as "double her base weapon's damage plus her Charisma modifier in damage." They also make a point of the fact that this damage "scales up by level", which I take to mean with reference to Stat bonuses effectively increasing by 1 every 2 levels.

So, a Rogue with a short sword would be 2d6+Dex mod+1/2 level

Spatula · Feb 26, 2008

Lizard said:
I think the issue here is that the builds (Suggestions to follow) PERFECTLY mirror the Tactics (a rules mechanic). Thus, the conclusion is that "There will be X builds, and X mechanical choices to make at level 1 to reinforce those builds".

"So you want to play a particular kind of character? Here's some powers, feats, skills, and ability scores you probably want to give priority to."

That's what you're complaining about. Advice on how to build an effective character! If you don't need the advice, ignore it. Not everyone can be as rules-savvy as you, though. Some people just want to have fun without spending their free time poring over rulebooks. I don't understand how giving these people some character building suggestions ruins the game.

Gundark · Feb 26, 2008

Lackhand said:
Height
Weight
Eye color
Hair color
Bladder capacity
Wrist Circumference
OHCRAP I'VE WANDERED INTO FATAL.

Oh man negative points for mentioning that game...the one that shall not be named.

Cthulhudrew · Feb 26, 2008

So nobody else is at all dismayed by the note that the new rules/customization options were so daunting that even veteran players needed some build notes to help them through the creation process?

JohnSnow · Feb 26, 2008

Cadfan said:
Sight unseen, mechanics unseen, which character would you prefer?

Character A: Has two per encounter abilities that let him hit particularly hard. He is at +1 to both of these.
Character B: Has two per encounter abilities that let him avoid damage by maneuvering. He is at +1 to both of these.
Character C: Has one per encounter ability that lets him hit particularly hard, and one per encounter ability that lets him avoid damage by maneuvering. He is at +1 to one of these.

I don't think its an obvious choice. Character A and B receive the boost more often, but Character C has versatility at what seems to be a relatively small cost.

Exactly. Versatility IS potentially a benefit. Even if it's technically "sub-optimal," having that power might be the thing that saves your bacon one day. For example, there are times when the extra damage from torturous strike (even if you don't get the FULL benefit) might be more useful than being able to do normal damage and slide the target 3 squares (as positioning strike would do). Or if you're a brutal scoundrel, there might be times when sliding the target 1 square might be exactly what you want, like say, if he's next to a cliff.

And while the trade-off makes this a hard call for the per-encounter abilities, it's even harder for the at-will ones (if any benefit from those options). As Cadfan said, even when you can only use it once in an encounter, it's far from an "obvious choice." And when it's potentially an option you can have available every round, it's even harder.

I think optimization by cross-training outside your "build" will be precisely the sort of thing the min-maxing people go nuts over (in a good way). But if the designers did their jobs right, there will always be trade-offs involved, and the game will have very few "no-brainer" decisions (barring a few options that I'm sure slipped through - nobody's perfect).

And in fact, I think that's why the rogue gets Thievery and Stealth automatically - they're no-brainer choices, so they're NOT options.

Irda Ranger · Feb 26, 2008

Cthulhudrew said:
So nobody else is at all dismayed by the note that the new rules/customization options were so daunting that even veteran players needed some build notes to help them through the creation process?

No. Any time you're learning something new it's helpful to have some advice to orient yourself and make smart decisions. It doesn't matter if you're a genius or a 'tard: helpful advice is always helpful when learning a new "thing" (whether it's a game with lots of rules (like D&D) or only a few rules (like Checkers), or how to read a London tube map).

Irda Ranger · Feb 26, 2008

JohnSnow said:
And in fact, I think that's why the rogue gets Thievery and Stealth automatically - they're no-brainer choices, so they're NOT options.

Because this is the internet I'd like to nitpick this one little thing. I think making these skills automatic is at least in part (largely) to keep the archetype of the Rogue strong and to keep the conceptual difference between the Rogue and the Ranger at a comfortable difference, whose auto-skills may well be Stealth and Survival.

'Build' Madness.

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