TSR Q&A with Gary Gygax

Storm Raven · Feb 18, 2005

tenkar said:
Guess my experience with AD&D was that multi-class characters fell far behind the rest of the party around name level (9-10) as their THACO and HP were usually substantiallly lower. The fighter-thief doesn't tank as well (lower ac and hp) as a fighter of equal XP, tho the thief abilities don't lag all that far behind.

At the same experience totals, a 1e Ftr/MU (using the UA advancement rules) would be 9th/10th level, while their single classed fighter counterpart would be 10th level. The multiclassed character would have a THAC0 one less, and fewer hit points (the Ftr would have an average of 5.5 per level, through level 9, for a total of 49.5 + Con bonus, while the Ftr/MU would have an average of 37.25 + Con bonus), but on the other hand to offset these deficiencies, the Ftr/Mu would have all the spells of a 10th level magic-user, which would more than compensate.

In 3rd ed, if my cleric takes 1 level of fighter for the bonus combat feats, or my wizzie takes a level of thief first for extra proficiencies, weapons and abilities it like getting a major free bonus at little cost. You are right tho', in 3rd ed it is a liability to try and keep more then one class leveling.

Your wizard or cleric loses an entire level in spell casting, undead turning, familiar advancement, and all of the other benefits of their spell casting class. In exchange, he gets a few skill points, or a few hit points, and maybe a bonus feat. It's generally not a great trade-off. By taking a second (or third) class, you dilute the abilities of your other classes.

Which would you rather be? A 4th level cleric/1st level Fighter, able to cast 2nd level spells? Or a 5th level cleric (able to cast 3rd level spells)? It depends on your situation, but one is not obviously better than the other. In the way a 1e Ftr/MU is better than a 1e Ftr.

Col_Pladoh · Feb 18, 2005

jasper said:
What ( most some few none all) {select the one you like} forget is D&D in any form is a GAME. All games have rules. And all rules don't have to make sense. The game is not the story. The story is what happen during the game.
Just like the time me and my brother got my parents, my uncle and aunt to play Life with us and my Aunt won while Daddy when to the poor house with 1 kid and Jr went to poor house with 4 girls and 3 boys.
all games and hobbies give you stories to tell. They are only interesting if they are told in a interesting fashion and to some one who shares your interest.

Hoi Jasper,

Not much case for disputation in what you state

However, "told" isn't a necessary part of most games. The critical factors are entertainment and enjoyment arising from play.

Cheers,
Gary

Joseph Elric Smith · Feb 18, 2005

Well you got one right Tolkien had elves but as for knight of the swords while Corum visited earth he was mistaken for an elf, he was not on, but actually Vadhagh, and the Corum books are an excellent example of how humanity overwhelms the race of the Vadhagh because they lake the inclination and drive to complete things in a timely fashion.
Ken

Storm Raven said:
They exist in Tolkien. And Lloyd Alexander's work (as the fair folk), and Celtic myth (as the sidhe) and the Moorcock's works (in, for example, Knight of Swords) and so on and so forth.

Barak · Feb 18, 2005

Col_Pladoh said:
I think a thief would be easy, and the temple of whatever non goody-goody deity would likely praise his generous contrbutions--all taken from non-believers, of course

Well yes but on.. Hey! Wait a minute! You are the one who said assassin and thief would require quite an extensive bit of roleplaying, not me! You trickster you.

Col_Pladoh · Feb 18, 2005

Joseph Elric Smith said:
So why are you arguing? You don't like or understand the logic, then change it to fit you ideal. Instead of complaining about why Life isn't more liek monopoly or payday just change the rules you want and go on. No answer any one gives will satisfy you because, you have your own idea of what the solution should be, so use it.
Ken

Ken,

A good suggestion, because sure as shootin', and just like I said, I ain't about to bother with any more of the demi-human silliness

Heh,
Gary

Storm Raven · Feb 18, 2005

Joseph Elric Smith said:
So why are you arguing? You don't like or understand the logic, then change it to fit you ideal.

Thus far, no one has asserted any logic, thus there is no logic to like or understand. There is only an assertion of arbitrary fiat. I don't believe this to be the actual answer. Because if it is, then that is the earmark of someone who didn't actually do the thinking behind the design. Which I am not convinced is true.

Instead of complaining about why Life isn't more liek monopoly or payday just change the rules you want and go on. No answer any one gives will satisfy you because, you have your own idea of what the solution should be, so use it.

No, my question is aimed at what went into the decisions. The given answers don't match the given reasons. Therefore, they don't add up, and hence, as ultimately entirely unsatisfying, giving more credence to some theories about the early development of the D&D game that are less than flattering to some in attendance here. I don't believe those are true, therefore, the actual answers cannot be the ones handed about here.

Col_Pladoh · Feb 18, 2005

Barak said:
Well yes but on.. Hey! Wait a minute! You are the one who said assassin and thief would require quite an extensive bit of roleplaying, not me! You trickster you.

Heh,

Well, caught with my hand in the cookie jar playing devil's advocate

Seriously, though, the difficulty in roleplay would most likely arise from the player's mindset, not in finding a reasonable explanation for the character to be actively religious.

Speaking of the assassin PC, the Thug would likely get into hot water by preaching Kali abroad, eh?

cheers,
Gary

Storm Raven · Feb 18, 2005

Joseph Elric Smith said:
Well you got one right Tolkien had elves but as for knight of the swords while Corum visited earth he was mistaken for an elf, he was not on, but actually Vadhagh, and the Corum books are an excellent example of how humanity overwhelms the race of the Vadhagh because they lake the inclination and drive to complete things in a timely fashion.

What you call a demi-human is not necessarily indicative of what they are. Corum is an elf, because his race fits the classical "elven" traits of our mythology (mostly the Sidhe myth). And humanity overhwlems his race because of the change in the cosmological nature of the multiverse, not because they lack drive.

loki44 · Feb 18, 2005

Storm Raven said:
Except now you are shifting your argument. Previously you have asserted that the level limits reflected the themes of fantasy literature. Now thaqt I ask which works of literature and mythology you draw that assertion from, and you dodge.

Not to be contentious, but I never asserted that level limits reflected themes of fantasy literature. That must've been someone else. My argument was simply that a level limit for demi-humans is justifiable in that elves, dwarves and such might simply not have the same capacity to improve beyond a certain level that humans do. That's all. I never mentioned anything about literature. However, if I had to select one literary fantasy world that most reflects my game world it would either be Nehwon or Hyboria. I don't recall demi-humans, in the D&D sense, existing in either one. I thought this discussion was supposed to be ended on this thread?

Barak · Feb 18, 2005

Col_Pladoh said:
Speaking of the assassin PC, the Thug would likely get into hot water by preaching Kali abroad, eh?

Given the stuff they were on... Would they care?

It does give one some thoughts about the benefits of playing in an alignment-less system. Something to be said about all sides believing they are right. Then again, When playing a game, a lot of people (me included some of the time) like the option of a black and white world, when one can make sure he's on the right side with the casting of a low-level spell.

TSR Q&A with Gary Gygax

Storm Raven

First Post

Col_Pladoh

Gary Gygax

Joseph Elric Smith

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Barak

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Col_Pladoh

Gary Gygax

Storm Raven

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Col_Pladoh

Gary Gygax

Storm Raven

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loki44

Explorer

Barak

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