D&D 4E [Eberron] Dragonmarks in 4E

Wolfwood2 · May 14, 2008

The 4E books for Eberron are still a ways away, so it might be useful to brainstorm on how to represent some setting elements in 4E for those currently running campaigns.

Right off the bat, I see Dragonmarks as a form of multiclassing with racial requirements. You take the Least Dragonmark feat, and it grants a trained skill, useful 1/encounter or 1/day ability, and the ability to take further feats. Other Dragonmark feats follow as per multi-classing examples, except that you're trading class powers for unique dragonmark-only powers. Dragonmark Heir is a paragon path, available only to those with dragonmarks. The Siberys mark is an Epic Destiny. Of course, this is for PCs. NPCs built as monsters can get the same abilties at whatever level you want them to have them.

Granted, this means all the basic dragonmark abilties will be fleeting, combat-useful stuff. The real power of the Houses will come from dragonshard focus items that can only be created and used by those with dragonmarks. Potentially you could have dragonmark-only rituals usable only by those with the appropriate dragonmark feat.

jaelis · May 14, 2008

Seems to me that the obvious thing for dragonmarks would be to have them grant you a power. Why make it more complicated than that?

Engilbrand · May 14, 2008

Aren't Dragonmarks supposed to be inherently weaker feats, though? They offer little mechanically, but they increase your social standing and give you certain options that you wouldn't otherwise have.
Other than that, though, I hope that this is the direction that they take in 4E.

jelmore · May 14, 2008

I think the Siberys Mark should be a paragon path, not an epic destiny. According to the established Eberron canon, a Siberys mark is not usually something you work towards; you either get a regular mark (which can be developed, as the Dragonmarked Heir class and other feats show) or a Siberys Mark. But it's definitely something that happens to "children of destiny", which fits with the paragon path concept.

Aside from that, I think you're spot on. My guess is the Forgotten Realms' new "spellscars" will provide a template as to how dragonmarks will function.

I do hope that the developers don't succumb to pressure and make the marks more "useful" (read as "combat-oriented"). The dragonmarked houses didn't become economic juggernauts because the dragonmarks allowed them to kick ass, they leveraged the abilities the dragonmarks provided to build their monopolies.

I wasn't going to take Least Dragonmark at all, even though I'm running a House Cannith artificer; as it happens, we're running Eyes of the Lich Queen, so he got one anyway. I toyed with the idea of taking a dragonmark other than the Mark of Making, to add some drama, but our Eberron DM is kinda new to DMing so I went with the "safe" choice.

I wonder what kind of epic destinies we'll see for Eberron? Throwing out some ideas:

* Champion of the Ancestors: A Valenar or Aerenal elf-centric epic destiny, which culminates in the character becoming a revered spirit -- maybe even a deathless counsellor in the Undying Court when they die?
* Child of Siberys: A dragonmark-centric epic destiny where the character's life becomes so enmeshed with the Prophecy that their mark develops powers never before seen. (I'm borrowing the concept from the main character of The Storm Dragon. On second thought, maybe Heir of Siberys would make a good epic destiny after all...)
* Saint of the Flame: a Silver Flame-centric epic destiny that has the character retire as an honored devotee of the Flame.

Mustrum_Ridcully · May 14, 2008

Engilbrand said:
Aren't Dragonmarks supposed to be inherently weaker feats, though? They offer little mechanically, but they increase your social standing and give you certain options that you wouldn't otherwise have.

Never balance out-of-combat benefit with in-combat benefits. That was already said for 3E, and it's definitely also true in 4E.

In the end, a Dragonmark means more power, but also more responsibility. That would balance the out-of-combat aspects. And the in-combat aspect is balanced by this
- You have to take the feat.
- You need to spend the action.

possible implementations
- Take a feat to gain an extra power based on the dragonmark
- Take a feat to exchange one of your daily/encounter powers with a dragonmark power.

I think the first one is the most likely, but I see a possibility you get a little extra benefit (like with the 3.5 Dragonmarks).

Asmor · May 14, 2008

I'd probably have a dragonmark give an at will ability. Since at will abilities can be used as much as you want, gaining more doesn't increase your raw power so much as your versatility (which actually does increase your overall power, but in a more subtle way).

Compare that to encounter powers, where having 2 encounter powers vs. 3 encounter powers is a significant leap in power because now you can do 50% more crazy attacks per combat.

Wolfwood2 · May 14, 2008

jelmore said:
I think the Siberys Mark should be a paragon path, not an epic destiny. According to the established Eberron canon, a Siberys mark is not usually something you work towards; you either get a regular mark (which can be developed, as the Dragonmarked Heir class and other feats show) or a Siberys Mark. But it's definitely something that happens to "children of destiny", which fits with the paragon path concept. [/QUOTE[

I'm not sure why what was a very high level prestige class in 3.5 that you yourself descibe as "children of destiny" doesn't work for an Epic Destiny. Sure you could make it a paragon path, but the Siberys mark is supposed to be a capstone ability. In 3.5 a character would take the Siberys prestige class about the same time qa wizard would take the archmage prestige class. If archmage is an epic destiny, why not the Suberys mark?

I do hope that the developers don't succumb to pressure and make the marks more "useful" (read as "combat-oriented"). The dragonmarked houses didn't become economic juggernauts because the dragonmarks allowed them to kick ass, they leveraged the abilities the dragonmarks provided to build their monopolies.

Click to expand...

The dragonmarked houses didn't become economic juggernauts because of the spell-like abilties granted by their marks, either. Their power comes from dragonshard items that allow them to channel the power of their marks for more useful ends.

Again, I think dragonmarks work quite well as a form of multi-classing, and that's all about the combat powers.

I wonder what kind of epic destinies we'll see for Eberron? Throwing out some ideas:

* Champion of the Ancestors: A Valenar or Aerenal elf-centric epic destiny, which culminates in the character becoming a revered spirit -- maybe even a deathless counsellor in the Undying Court when they die?
* Child of Siberys: A dragonmark-centric epic destiny where the character's life becomes so enmeshed with the Prophecy that their mark develops powers never before seen. (I'm borrowing the concept from the main character of The Storm Dragon. On second thought, maybe Heir of Siberys would make a good epic destiny after all...)
* Saint of the Flame: a Silver Flame-centric epic destiny that has the character retire as an honored devotee of the Flame.

Click to expand...

Speaker for the Flame. The PC takes over as the new living representative of the Flame's will on Eberron. (The current Speaker can just be 'retired' by the DM using whatever method seems most appropriate.)

Gatekeeper. The PC becomes a living ward against Xoriat.

Trolls · May 14, 2008

Asmor said:
I'd probably have a dragonmark give an at will ability. Since at will abilities can be used as much as you want, gaining more doesn't increase your raw power so much as your versatility (which actually does increase your overall power, but in a more subtle way).

Compare that to encounter powers, where having 2 encounter powers vs. 3 encounter powers is a significant leap in power because now you can do 50% more crazy attacks per combat.

Building on this idea, maybe the Least Dragonmark feat could grant an at-will power, then have that feat be a requirement for a 'Dragonmark Heir' paragon path.

Then, the 11th and 12th level powers of the path could represent the Lesser Dragonmark, and the 19th(?) level daily power could represent the Greater Dragonmark.

There is an issue in that it skews NPC levels a little (dragonmarked NPCs would have to be high level), but it's a solution that might work.

Wolfwood2 · May 14, 2008

Huh, for some reason my prior post is showing up as blank and I can't edit in text.

jelmore said:
I think the Siberys Mark should be a paragon path, not an epic destiny. According to the established Eberron canon, a Siberys mark is not usually something you work towards; you either get a regular mark (which can be developed, as the Dragonmarked Heir class and other feats show) or a Siberys Mark. But it's definitely something that happens to "children of destiny", which fits with the paragon path concept. [/QUOTE[

I'm not sure why what was a very high level prestige class in 3.5 that you yourself descibe as "children of destiny" doesn't work for an Epic Destiny. Sure you could make it a paragon path, but the Siberys mark is supposed to be a capstone ability. In 3.5 a character would take the Siberys prestige class about the same time a wizard would take the archmage prestige class. If archmage is an epic destiny, why not the Suberys mark?

I do hope that the developers don't succumb to pressure and make the marks more "useful" (read as "combat-oriented"). The dragonmarked houses didn't become economic juggernauts because the dragonmarks allowed them to kick ass, they leveraged the abilities the dragonmarks provided to build their monopolies.

Click to expand...

The dragonmarked houses didn't become economic juggernauts because of the spell-like abilties granted by their marks, either. Their power comes from dragonshard items that allow them to channel the power of their marks for more useful ends.

Again, I think dragonmarks work quite well as a form of multi-classing, and that's all about the combat powers.

I wonder what kind of epic destinies we'll see for Eberron? Throwing out some ideas:

* Champion of the Ancestors: A Valenar or Aerenal elf-centric epic destiny, which culminates in the character becoming a revered spirit -- maybe even a deathless counsellor in the Undying Court when they die?
* Child of Siberys: A dragonmark-centric epic destiny where the character's life becomes so enmeshed with the Prophecy that their mark develops powers never before seen. (I'm borrowing the concept from the main character of The Storm Dragon. On second thought, maybe Heir of Siberys would make a good epic destiny after all...)
* Saint of the Flame: a Silver Flame-centric epic destiny that has the character retire as an honored devotee of the Flame.

Click to expand...

Speaker for the Flame. The PC takes over as the new living representative of the Flame's will on Eberron. (The current Speaker can just be 'retired' by the DM using whatever method seems most appropriate.)

Gatekeeper. The PC becomes a living ward

Ultimatecalibur · May 14, 2008

One possibility is to do something similar to the multiclassing feats:

Dragonmark - Marked Race - "House" Skill Training, Minor House benefit

Least Dragonmark Power - Any Dragonmark, 4th level - Swap one encounter power with one of the Dragonmark's

Lesser Dragonmark Power - Any Dragonmark, 8th level - Swap one utility power with one of the Dragonmark's

Greater Dragonmark Power - Any Dragonmark, 10th level - Swap one daily power with one of the Dragonmark's

D&D 4E [Eberron] Dragonmarks in 4E

Wolfwood2

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jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?

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