Ready and Delay?

mneme · May 15, 2008

MindWanderer: huh? It was never there; in 3.x, whenever your readied action goes off, your initiative moves to that point, so you don't get to attack again for another full round.

Re "smart orcs" -- you -do- get an attack of opportunity whenever someone uses a ranged attack while in your threat range; the default way to disrupt annoying powers is to kill the power user. So smart orcs expecting a fireball to go on line will mob the wizard -- that way, they get an attack and another attack when the wizard tries to use a ranged power. Of course, if the wizard instead, oh, uses an eladrin shift and then blasts them, they're boned -- but at least they tried...

Mort_Q · May 15, 2008

SRD: Special Initiative Actions

MindWanderer · May 15, 2008

mneme said:
MindWanderer: huh? It was never there; in 3.x, whenever your readied action goes off, your initiative moves to that point, so you don't get to attack again for another full round.

Another almost a full round. Say you have an opponent with an at-will healing ability that your party is having a hard time keeping up with--you attack, it heals, and you're back to square one (illustration). So to break the cycle, you ready to attack when it heals. So it heals, your readied action goes off and you damage it, then your next turn comes up before it has a chance to heal again, and you finish it off. In 3.x you have to be a little bit more careful with the timing (readying to attack after it heals but before the end if its turn), but in 4e it looks easy.

keterys · May 15, 2008

Except, your attack would go before it healed in 3e... and unless it interrupted that heal somehow, they'd heal some of the damage you dealt. Or not heal at all cause they hadn't taken enough damage to justify it.

In 4e, since you don't interrupt the creature, you've lost an action on it and it'll go before you most likely. Doesn't seem like a winning choice.

Lacyon · May 15, 2008

keterys said:
Except, your attack would go before it healed in 3e... and unless it interrupted that heal somehow, they'd heal some of the damage you dealt. Or not heal at all cause they hadn't taken enough damage to justify it.

Unless you specified your triggering event such that this wasn't true. "[Y]ou have to be a little bit more careful with the timing."

keterys said:
In 4e, since you don't interrupt the creature, you've lost an action on it and it'll go before you most likely. Doesn't seem like a winning choice.

Not according to the posts by WOTC_Logan. You hit it just after it heals, and then your initiative is set to just before the other creature's.

keterys · May 15, 2008

Eh, I think I'm ethically against 'I ready for right after its heal lands but before it technically ends its turn just so I can cheese the system'.

Right you are on 4e, though. At least, as previewed. We'll see the final rules I guess.

Dausuul · May 15, 2008

Lacyon said:
Not according to the posts by WOTC_Logan. You hit it just after it heals, and then your initiative is set to just before the other creature's.

Anyone see a reason why this could not be fixed by house-ruling that your initiative moves to immediately after the creature you readied against? The ability to take two turns without your opponent getting a chance to react is very, very powerful, even if it means you yourself have to give up an action to get it--you get to plan your double-action, your opponent doesn't.

FourthBear · May 15, 2008

DM_Blake said:
Orc1: Uh oh, that mage over there is surely going to fireball us.
Orc2: Or worse...
Orc1: What can we do? We know it's coming. We're smart enough to anticipate it. Surely we can do something?
Orc2: Yep, we can get ready to roll our saves. Uh, er, wait... Forget the save. Just fall to your knees and pray to Gruumsh that the mage rolls badly.

I really really hope there are alternatives for smart organized combatants to find some way to disrupt the artillery.

I don't think spells take so long to cast in either 3e or 4e that you could have a leisurely conversation between the time the spell starts being cast and the spell going off.

The system sounds very similar to the 3e system, if they are adjacent to the mage and he casts an area or ranged attack, they'll get opportunity attacks. And I don't think the mage gets the chance to make a concentration check to avoid this, so in a way, it's harder than in 3e to avoid consequences of some kind of spellcasting in melee. Of course, it's also easier in some ways, since Close spells can be cast without such a worry. I can imagine powers that allow you to immediately interrupt a ranged spell being cast adjacent to you for a mage-killer class. But I think that having every combatant be able to interrupt spellcasting would be a very significant limitation for spellcasters. I don't think it would be too bad a house-rule, but I can see why they wouldn't make it core rules.

MindWanderer · May 16, 2008

DM_Blake said:
Ooooh, I so hope you're wrong.

Orc1: Uh oh, that mage over there is surely going to fireball us.
Orc2: Or worse...
Orc1: What can we do? We know it's coming. We're smart enough to anticipate it. Surely we can do something?
Orc2: Yep, we can get ready to roll our saves. Uh, er, wait... Forget the save. Just fall to your knees and pray to Gruumsh that the mage rolls badly.

I really really hope there are alternatives for smart organized combatants to find some way to disrupt the artillery.

Why? A spell that takes a standard action is the same as a weapon that takes a standard action. To paraphrase:

Orc1: Uh oh, that ranger over there is surely going to shoot us.
Orc2: Or worse...
Orc1: What can we do? We know it's coming. We're smart enough to anticipate it. Surely we can do something?
Orc2: Yep, we can get ready to roll our saves. Uh, er, wait... Forget the save. Just fall to your knees and pray to Gruumsh that the ranger rolls badly.

And this is different how?

jeffhartsell · May 16, 2008

Dausuul said:
Anyone see a reason why this could not be fixed by house-ruling that your initiative moves to immediately after the creature you readied against? The ability to take two turns without your opponent getting a chance to react is very, very powerful, even if it means you yourself have to give up an action to get it--you get to plan your double-action, your opponent doesn't.

Actually, readying is a sound tactic against stupid mobs. We had a classic blunder we call the "Bulette maneuver". The group knew a bulette was somewhere and we were in combat doing tactically movement. We all lined up with a readied attack if the landshark moved next to us. Shark surfaced and moved next to all of us. *Opps on DM tactics*

Or actions triggered (everyone attacked) and we all reset to before the bulette. We attacked AGAIN before the bulette. Dead. Our DM was annoyed with himself, but it was a good leason in what not to do.

Ready and Delay?

mneme

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