Minions and Temporary HPs

Kraydak said:

/snip
Zero might count as an amount of damage,
/snip

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That's Zen man. Really Zen.

Sabathius42 said:

I don't think it makes sense that all minions "die in one hit" because if that is the case then my 1st level adventurer is going to run around looking for 30th level minions to ambush. I am fairly certain that higher level minions had higher numbers of hit-points, which means that although they will be usually killed in one hit thats not the same as ALWAYS killed in one hit.

I ruled that the minions had 6hp when I ran KotS. It really isn't much of a headache since just about everyone does a minimum of 6 points of damage anyway.

DS

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Because, yeah, as a player, I get the CHOOSE every opponent I face. AND, I get to find a lone 30th level minion, all by himself, and mug him. Because, y'know, I KNOW what a minion looks like, it's printed on his red shirt.

dracolich said:

The point of minions is to be cannon fodder. The point of the Wyrmpriest, and other leaders like it, is to increase the survivability of those he commands.

When I DMed it, I gave the minions the temp HP and allowed them to take damage. Almost all still got killed by 1 hit. When a player failed to kill a minion, that player got heckled by his comrades about how weak he was. "So weak, you couldn't crush a minion" to quote the fighter.

As a DM, it was a win/win. The wyrmpriest did his job and I got a laugh out of the players making fun of each other. Had it become an issue of tracking HP (although it was not), the next time a wyrmpriest and minions were encountered, I'd change the priest's power to granting a +1 to hit to all creatures until the end of the priest's next turn. Increased survivability by increasing the chance a PC may not survive for one more round.

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This.

Sabathius42 said:

I don't think it makes sense that all minions "die in one hit" because if that is the case then my 1st level adventurer is going to run around looking for 30th level minions to ambush. I am fairly certain that higher level minions had higher numbers of hit-points, which means that although they will be usually killed in one hit thats not the same as ALWAYS killed in one hit.

I ruled that the minions had 6hp when I ran KotS. It really isn't much of a headache since just about everyone does a minimum of 6 points of damage anyway.

DS

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sigh.

The minion 1 hit point is an abstraction. the 30 level minion you so much claim would be a normal mob against your 1st level character. You can only find minions near your level and that is if the encounter was designed to have minion.

Minions don't exist its only an abstraction to represent thugs/mooks/toadies.

Hussar said:

Because, yeah, as a player, I get the CHOOSE every opponent I face. AND, I get to find a lone 30th level minion, all by himself, and mug him. Because, y'know, I KNOW what a minion looks like, it's printed on his red shirt..

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Its hard NOT to metagame when you have a scene described to you as follows...

Standing on the alter is a strangely frilled kobold holding some sort of skull and chanting something you don't understand. He is flanked by two extremely squat and beefy looking kobolds holding shields and swords. Below the alter scattered around are 10 or so other kobolds holding spears and watching the proceedings. *roll* Also, in the distance beyond the altar you see two more kobolds lurking in the shadows.

Also, as everyone should have learned from watching The Tick, minions aren't allowed in the normal bars and are forced to head out back to the sidekick bar with the other hangers on.

DS

If my 1st level players thought they'd try and be funny and actually search for, in-game, "30th lvl minions," I'd have some "30th lvl solos" come looking for some "1st lvl PCs." >: )

Here's my feelings on the matter: I'm not so arrogant as to state Mr. Sims is wrong. However, plenty of people on this board already have the book. If his answer is correct, someone from WotC should be able to give us a text reference where that information could be found or extrapolated. If not, we're looking at what is effectively a zero-day (if not negative day) patch, and I find that reprehensible.

what a wonderful argument this has become. LOL

I do agree with the statement that it's hard not to metagame, not just in a particular situation but in general. I hate metagaming, but if as a player I have that metagame knowledge, its hard to ignore that and act as if I didn't know. Most RPG'ers are pretty intelligent and it's easy to pick up on the loopholes (which will ALWAYS exist, given the nature of the beast) and to look at the game from the most statistically viable perspective.

That's why 4e is so refreshing to me. I'm not gonna look at the DM's guide or the Monster Manual, or anything else like that. I want to be surprised again and to not know what to expect. I'm not even gonna look at the magic items til I get one. And I'm going to TRY not to over-analyze the rules. That's been my habit, and it seems like it's the habit of ALOT of players. No criticism here, we all enjoy the game for different reasons. But to me, taking it apart like that just ruins it.

NMcCoy said:

If you want to decrease bookkeeping while having the same basic effect, just have N temporary hit points give the minion Resist N All for the next time they'd take damage. Then you can just track each minion as "shielded" or not.

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This sounds like an excellent way to use the temporary HP rule. On the off chance that the minion survives the attack I won't have to track the spare HP. Consider this "borrowed".

Sabathius42 said:

I don't think it makes sense that all minions "die in one hit" because if that is the case then my 1st level adventurer is going to run around looking for 30th level minions to ambush. I am fairly certain that higher level minions had higher numbers of hit-points, which means that although they will be usually killed in one hit thats not the same as ALWAYS killed in one hit.

I ruled that the minions had 6hp when I ran KotS. It really isn't much of a headache since just about everyone does a minimum of 6 points of damage anyway.

DS

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Minions are a character level challenge and a plot device. They should almost never be +-5 levels of the characters. At first level or any level they cannot 'find' minions

Sabathius42 said:

Its hard NOT to metagame when you have a scene described to you as follows...

Standing on the alter is a strangely frilled kobold holding some sort of skull and chanting something you don't understand. He is flanked by two extremely squat and beefy looking kobolds holding shields and swords. Below the alter scattered around are 10 or so other kobolds holding spears and watching the proceedings. *roll* Also, in the distance beyond the altar you see two more kobolds lurking in the shadows.

Also, as everyone should have learned from watching The Tick, minions aren't allowed in the normal bars and are forced to head out back to the sidekick bar with the other hangers on.

DS

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What does your example have to do with mugging a lone 30th level minion?

Hussar said:

What does your example have to do with mugging a lone 30th level minion?

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My example is thus...

1. Its fairly easy to tell a minion from a normal bad guy through metagaming.

2. Minions are people too (in a simulationist/sandbox world) and have a life. Even that Lvl 27 Human Rabble minion goes home to visit his wife and kids now and then.

So, an intrepid band of 1st level adventurers out for some quick XP could spend some gold around to find out SVEN THE HALF INSANE BUTCHER has a sidejob at the evil cultists house up the hill as "Goon Cultist #3". One night after a long bout of summoning evil hoards, Sven heads home tired and ready for a long sleep. He is waylaid by that band of 1st level adventurers and shot down in the streets. They get phat lewt.

DS

PS Since sarcasm doesn't work well on the internets, and since several people seem to think that *I* personally or anyone else in general would ACTUALLY play this way, I just want to make it quite clear that I am only speaking in jest. In no way, shape, or form do I condone a 1st level party actually MINION HUNTING in their spare time.

PSS My personal opinion is that minions are supposed to be easily killed speedbumps in battle. They accomplish this by having extremely low numbers of hit points and a special "never killed on a miss" shield. I don't find the act of tacking on an additional 5 hit points either unbalancing, unwieldy, nor unflavorful. More to the point, when the wyrmpriest did this in my game it actually had the metagame effect of scaring the players because when they DID hit a minion with a small bit of damage they were suprised the minion was able to stand up and keep fighting. In my opinion this ability HELPS combats be more "realistic" and requires little extra work on my end (because most minions died in one hit anyway).