Is my Paladin (rebalanced) tank ready?

Skead · May 29, 2008

Hi everyone,

I have a Paladin I'm making using a Rebalanced Paladin Template.
(http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045)

I'm trying to build him "Tank" spec where he has high AC and high life (I rolled my life and got very lucky, DM was there when rolls happened) and the DM has given us 19,000 gold to work
with.

Level: 7
HP: 85

Saves:

Fort: 13
Ref: 9
Will: 9

Feats:
Tower Shield Prof.
Dodge
Combat Expertise
Shield Ward (level 5 Paladin Specialization)
Leadership
Shield Specialization

Armor:
Mithril Full Plate +8 (armor enchanted) (10,500g)
Tower Shield +4 (shield spec and shield enchanted) (40g)
+2 Dex bonus to Armor (Dex is 14)
+1 shield bonus enchantment (1000g)
+1 armor bonus enchantment (1000g)
+1 Bracers of Armor (1000g) (DM allows this, I'm not sure if this is RAW)
+1 Amulet of Natural Armor (1000g)
+1 Shield Specialization Feat
+1 Dodge
+5 situation bonus when using Combat Expertise.

So is there anything else I'm missing?
We have more than enough Damage in the group, just no one to take the hits.

And how does "taunting" work. Some people say bluff, some say intimidate, anyone have information on this?

Thank you all!

ps. Feel free to call my mistakes, i'm very newbish at making good tanks.

moritheil · May 29, 2008

This is a custom class written by two fans. As such, very few people are going to have extensive knowledge of it, and it isn't really part of the standard rules.

Bearing that in mind, my suggestion is that you move this thread over to house rules, because people who come in thinking that you are asking for help on a standard paladin are not going to be able to help you. Most of us are happy to help someone when we can, but asking us to learn a custom rules set that we have no interest in just to help you with one question is kind of stretching it.

Skead said:
I'm trying to build him "Tank" spec where he has high AC and high life (I rolled my life and got very lucky, DM was there when rolls happened) and the DM has given us 19,000 gold to work
with.

Surface similarities aside, this isn't a WoW forum, so your use of terminology is best toned down. When I saw you say "life" I thought it was some new stat in your custom rules system that replaced hit points. Hit points are hit points; it's best to call them what they are because words have precise meaning in 3.5.

We have more than enough Damage in the group, just no one to take the hits.

On what do you base this assertion? Do you have sneak attackers, mages, or power attacking barbarians? Give us an idea of where this damage is coming from if you want to make this statement - or just say that you aren't interested in building a damage dealer. Note that front line combatant designers do argue over how much damage is necessary to hold enemy attention. If you can't do any damage the enemy won't care about you.

And how does "taunting" work. Some people say bluff, some say intimidate, anyone have information on this?

There is a feat called Goad. If you want mechanically supported taunting that does something to your opponents, you will need to take that feat or a similar feat.

Skead · May 29, 2008

Oh, I wasn't really talking about the custom class. I was just wondering what feats out of the standard books.

ps. Sorry, we use "tanks" as in one specialized in taking hits. As mentioned below, perhaps my sessions are more easy going on terminology.

moritheil · May 29, 2008

Skead said:
Oh, I wasn't really talking about the custom class. I was just wondering what feats out of the standard books.

Well, then you might want to make clear which parts are standard and which aren't. Given that this is a house rule class, it's a little hard figuring out when you mean when anything unfamiliar could either be just your wording, or an actual different class feature (like when you said "life" and it wasn't clear if you were using hit points or not - I had to go to the link to check if hit points were replaced.)

Also, it's not going to be possible to optimize if we don't know what your options are. To really be able to get the most out of your character we would have to be familiar with the class.

Can we guess, based on what a normal paladin would want? Absolutely. Is there any indication that this will give you a more effective character if we don't know how the custom class works and/or whatever other houserules are involved? No.

moritheil · May 29, 2008

Maybe it isn't clear to you just how difficult your request is for people who know nothing about that custom class and your house rules, so here's another example:

Skead said:
+5 situation bonus when using Combat Expertise.

When I see this, I immediately wonder if you know that the +5 AC bonus from CE comes only when you're taking a -5 penalty to your attack bonus, and that it can be calibrated along a sliding scale. Normally, I would assume that you neglected to notice it or neglected to mention it.

But then I immediately have to question that, too, because I don't know if you're using some house rule that just gives you a flat +5 AC all the time.

See, this is the problem with putting in something that uses house rules and not telling us very clearly where the house rules start and stop. Fortunately, we have people with the patience to go over it and the experience with houserules to not be put off by that. Unfortunately, this isn't the forum where they hang out. You'd really do better putting this up in House Rules.

Skead · May 29, 2008

moritheil said:
This is a custom class written by two fans. As such, very few people are going to have extensive knowledge of it, and it isn't really part of the standard rules.

Sorry, I wasn't really interested in optimizing the custom class. I was just simply showing what template I use so that people don't just assume I'm pulling random feats and bonuses out of thin air.

moritheil said:
Surface similarities aside, this isn't a WoW forum, so your use of terminology is best toned down. When I saw you say "life" I thought it was some new stat in your custom rules system that replaced hit points. Hit points are hit points; it's best to call them what they are because words have precise meaning in 3.5.

Maybe my D&D sessions are more laid back than yours, we talk about life and HP as the same thing. I'll try be more clear next time.

moritheil said:
On what do you base this assertion? Do you have sneak attackers, mages, or power attacking barbarians? Give us an idea of where this damage is coming from if you want to make this statement - or just say that you aren't interested in building a damage dealer. Note that front line combatant designers do argue over how much damage is necessary to hold enemy attention. If you can't do any damage the enemy won't care about you.

We have a Rogue, a Sorcerer, a Cleric, and a Fighter specialized in fighting with 2 hands.

Good point on holding attention of the enemy. I could look into the feat Goad as you said. Or I could up my damage a bit more. I was planning on being the first one running in to help a bit.

Skead · May 29, 2008

moritheil said:
When I see this, I immediately wonder if you know that the +5 AC bonus from CE comes only when you're taking a -5 penalty to your attack bonus, and that it can be calibrated along a sliding scale. Normally, I would assume that you neglected to notice it or neglected to mention it.

But then I immediately have to question that, too, because I don't know if you're using some house rule that just gives you a flat +5 AC all the time.

See, this is the problem with putting in something that uses house rules and not telling us very clearly where the house rules start and stop. Fortunately, we have people with the patience to go over it and the experience with houserules to not be put off by that. Unfortunately, this isn't the forum where they hang out. You'd really do better putting this up in House Rules.

Oh, I totally understand the -5 to hit. I just was tallying up the armor bonus because my focus is on taking attacks, not dealing damage.

StreamOfTheSky · May 29, 2008

First off...wasting a feat on Tower Shield Proficiency is a bad choice. Not only is it not worth a feat, it actually lowers your attack bonus, it's so awkward to use. One thing I've learned in general about tank builds: Unless you have a way to actually, 100% guaranteed force a foe to fight you and not go mage-hunting, you CANNOT ignore your damage output. Part of being a good tank is being too fearsome to ignore.

As for "taunting," Goad is one option. It's kinda weak because you can only do it on people you threaten, it costs a Move action, and they still aren't really barred from moving away to attack someone else. Best case scenario is: every round, you use Goad, they ALWAYS fail the will save, and you end up trading one attack against teir full attack round after round. And that's the best case scenario. See why I called it weak?

If you want to actually physically keep people from leaving you, your best options are...other classes. The specific term for this is "lockdown." If you go to the char optimization boards at wotc's website (under "gleemax"), they have some threads on this. The two best classes for this are Crusader (with Iron Guard's Glare and/or Thicket of Blades stance, ShieldBlock/Counter maneuvers are also nice) from Tome of Battle, and (in a distant second) the Knight from the Player's Handbook 2, because his Bulwark of Defense class feature (with reach weapon and armor spikes) lets a medium human make all 10 ft around him difficult terrain. This means enemies can't move away from you safely with 5 ft steps, and makes tumbling harder. They also get swift action abilities with long range to make foes seek them out.

If you want to stay in Paladin, you're going to have to rely on feats and maybe spells. On that note, what books are allowed? Spell Compendium has a lot of useful things. One spell in particular, Knight's Move, lets you teleport as a swift action next to an enemy, if it'd put you into a flanking position. Expaanded Psionics Handbook as a general feat (as in, don't need to be psionic to take it) called Stand Still. It lets you on an attack of opportunity, instead of actually dealing damage, make the damage roll a save DC. If they fail, they are stopped from moving! Complete Champion has a feat (name?) that lets you cast all standard action paladin spells as a swift action, which is...handy for any build. If you insist on Combat Expertise, also get Improved Trip, so that you can use your AoO to trip them, and thus stop them. Whatever you do, having a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes is always useful.

If you're willing to multiclass into sorcerer/wizard (better as sorcerer), or even take Use Magic Device ranks, there's alot of nice low level spells in Spell Compendium. Benign Transposition is level 1, no save or SR (ie, great on a wand). It lets two willing allies teleport, swapping places. Obvious tactical useage there. Mindless Rage, level 2, is the ULTIMATE tanking spell. If they fail a will save, they have to attack you and it has to be melee attacks, if at all possible. No ranged attacks, spells, magic devices, or anything else allowed. At all. Side note: Also fun for a flying caster, after laying down nasty things like Spiked Stones to play a game of "catch the balloon!"

moritheil · May 30, 2008

Skead said:
Maybe my D&D sessions are more laid back than yours, we talk about life and HP as the same thing. I'll try be more clear next time.

I just wanted you to understand that in a case like this I can't assume that life and hps are the same because people do turn up with strange custom homebrew rules where they are not the same. Things that are unambiguous to you are not automatically unambiguous to your readers.

You can and should be laid back normally - but as soon as you start introducing custom rules and then don't say where they start and stop, everything is up in the air and even normal things become iffy.

We have a Rogue, a Sorcerer, a Cleric, and a Fighter specialized in fighting with 2 hands.

Good point on holding attention of the enemy. I could look into the feat Goad as you said. Or I could up my damage a bit more. I was planning on being the first one running in to help a bit.

Yeah, normally I see Paladins run as damage dealers/backup tanks and Fighters run as tanks. If you're running "sword and board" I guess you could have higher AC (and I'm assuming higher saves) so it's a reasonable role swap.

The feat Stream suggested, Stand Still, works better if you take another feat with it called Hold the Line, which gives you an AOO before someone leaves a threatened square instead of after. Bo9S also has a stance you can get with a single level in Crusader that will do the same thing. (I would highly recommend at least 1 Crusader level if you have access to it.)

Also, you never posted your stats; you just said you rolled well. There are some feats which are more or less important depending on your stats.

If you really want to have a great AC as well as good saves, the best way to do that is to be a battle sorc/paladin with levels in Ab Champ . . . but that gets into total character design overhaul, which I normally don't like to suggest.

Skead · May 30, 2008

StreamOfTheSky said:
First off...wasting a feat on Tower Shield Proficiency is a bad choice. Not only is it not worth a feat, it actually lowers your attack bonus, it's so awkward to use. One thing I've learned in general about tank builds: Unless you have a way to actually, 100% guaranteed force a foe to fight you and not go mage-hunting, you CANNOT ignore your damage output. Part of being a good tank is being too fearsome to ignore.

As for "taunting," Goad is one option. It's kinda weak because you can only do it on people you threaten, it costs a Move action, and they still aren't really barred from moving away to attack someone else. Best case scenario is: every round, you use Goad, they ALWAYS fail the will save, and you end up trading one attack against teir full attack round after round. And that's the best case scenario. See why I called it weak?

If you want to actually physically keep people from leaving you, your best options are...other classes. The specific term for this is "lockdown." If you go to the char optimization boards at wotc's website (under "gleemax"), they have some threads on this. The two best classes for this are Crusader (with Iron Guard's Glare and/or Thicket of Blades stance, ShieldBlock/Counter maneuvers are also nice) from Tome of Battle, and (in a distant second) the Knight from the Player's Handbook 2, because his Bulwark of Defense class feature (with reach weapon and armor spikes) lets a medium human make all 10 ft around him difficult terrain. This means enemies can't move away from you safely with 5 ft steps, and makes tumbling harder. They also get swift action abilities with long range to make foes seek them out.

If you want to stay in Paladin, you're going to have to rely on feats and maybe spells. On that note, what books are allowed? Spell Compendium has a lot of useful things. One spell in particular, Knight's Move, lets you teleport as a swift action next to an enemy, if it'd put you into a flanking position. Expaanded Psionics Handbook as a general feat (as in, don't need to be psionic to take it) called Stand Still. It lets you on an attack of opportunity, instead of actually dealing damage, make the damage roll a save DC. If they fail, they are stopped from moving! Complete Champion has a feat (name?) that lets you cast all standard action paladin spells as a swift action, which is...handy for any build. If you insist on Combat Expertise, also get Improved Trip, so that you can use your AoO to trip them, and thus stop them. Whatever you do, having a reach weapon and Combat Reflexes is always useful.

If you're willing to multiclass into sorcerer/wizard (better as sorcerer), or even take Use Magic Device ranks, there's alot of nice low level spells in Spell Compendium. Benign Transposition is level 1, no save or SR (ie, great on a wand). It lets two willing allies teleport, swapping places. Obvious tactical useage there. Mindless Rage, level 2, is the ULTIMATE tanking spell. If they fail a will save, they have to attack you and it has to be melee attacks, if at all possible. No ranged attacks, spells, magic devices, or anything else allowed. At all. Side note: Also fun for a flying caster, after laying down nasty things like Spiked Stones to play a game of "catch the balloon!"

Perfect, thank you very much for your help despite my horrible failure of a post. I've made notes and looking into it

Is my Paladin (rebalanced) tank ready?

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