Ok, some random questions about deft strike... I have my assumptions, but they seem weird.
Ok, take the premade rogue character, it has a good example, and lets assume level 1... high dex (+4 mod), lower str (+1 mod) .. so dagger melee attack only gets a +5 to hit (+3 proficiency, +1 from str mod, +1 from rogue weapon proficiency w/ dagger). It also just gets a +1 to the damage, from the str mod.. this is all with a basic attack.
The ranged attack is better, basing off of dexterity (is there an equivalent of weapon finesse to allow these bonuses in the basic melee attack, or is that just assumed you'll have powers to cover that?) so to hit is +8 (+3 dagger prof, +1 rogue dagger prof, +4 dex mod), and damage is +4 (from dex mod, and the daggers light thrown property).
Now, it would seem that with basic attacks, this rogue is far better off using ranged attacks with the daggers... the downsides being attacks of opportunity generated, ammo supply, and lack of flanking for advantage, yes?
so this is just build up... here are my actual questions:
First... deft strikes 2 moves, I assume are MOVES, not shifts? Seems like it should be a shift to be useful, but then maybe you are just assuming, added to your rogues AC bonus against AoOs, it's like tumble... so I'm assuming they proke attacks, right?
Next... can you perform ranged AOs? i.e. does the idea that only melee weapons threaten an area come into 4e from 3, or do ranged weapons not threaten space? All the rules say is that movement from an adjacent space (or a threatened space if you have Threatening Reach) promts AOs, so does that apply to ranged as well as melee? Again, seems weird, but I think that's what it means, and the fact that Magic Missile is specifically mentioned as being able to be used for AOs backs that up... seems odd it's only for adjectent w/ ranged weapons, but would probably be a bit overpowered otherwise... ... however, I just saw that on page 290, it says: "OPPORTUNITY ATTACK: OPPORTUNITY ACTION
✦ Melee Basic Attack: An opportunity attack is a
melee basic attack (page 287)."
That implies you can only make OAs if you are using a melee weapon, and only with the basic attack.. in fact, more than implies, pretty much spells it out. And now I can't find the bit I saw saying you could use Magic missile that way... it had said paraphrased, 'you can use magic missile for powers or rules that say ranged basic attack, such as opportunity attacks'... I found that sentence, but it doesn't say the such as part.
Maybe I made the whole thing up, but anyone else notice this before? anyway, I guess that whole line is null.. nevermind on that.
Next, do you flank with a ranged weapon? I know to flank you need to be adjacent, so you can't flank from a range, but can you flank point-blank? Daggers are a bad example, since you can use it melee or ranged, so let's say you have a crossbow in hand.
And last... if you are hidden, and fire a crossbow into someone's chest... are they aware of you? are you still hidden? do you have to make another immediate stealth roll against their passive, or do they get an immediate active? Any penalties to such rolls?
Could have sworn there were more, but I guess most of it comes down to the AOs on deft strike movement, and melee vs ranged potency of a dex rogue... I guess if you can only flank with melee weapons, the sneak attack damage will overshadow the extra damage from dex you'd have gotten... and looking at it again, really the only time you'd make a basic attack is for attacks of opportunity, all the first level at-will powers use dex based attack and damage rolls, except Riposte's special... So really I guess it just comes down to such a rogues AOs being weak... which itself seems odds, it seems like rogue AOs should be the most lethal...
So anything I'm missing, or did I answer all my own questions?
Ok, take the premade rogue character, it has a good example, and lets assume level 1... high dex (+4 mod), lower str (+1 mod) .. so dagger melee attack only gets a +5 to hit (+3 proficiency, +1 from str mod, +1 from rogue weapon proficiency w/ dagger). It also just gets a +1 to the damage, from the str mod.. this is all with a basic attack.
The ranged attack is better, basing off of dexterity (is there an equivalent of weapon finesse to allow these bonuses in the basic melee attack, or is that just assumed you'll have powers to cover that?) so to hit is +8 (+3 dagger prof, +1 rogue dagger prof, +4 dex mod), and damage is +4 (from dex mod, and the daggers light thrown property).
Now, it would seem that with basic attacks, this rogue is far better off using ranged attacks with the daggers... the downsides being attacks of opportunity generated, ammo supply, and lack of flanking for advantage, yes?
so this is just build up... here are my actual questions:
First... deft strikes 2 moves, I assume are MOVES, not shifts? Seems like it should be a shift to be useful, but then maybe you are just assuming, added to your rogues AC bonus against AoOs, it's like tumble... so I'm assuming they proke attacks, right?
Next... can you perform ranged AOs? i.e. does the idea that only melee weapons threaten an area come into 4e from 3, or do ranged weapons not threaten space? All the rules say is that movement from an adjacent space (or a threatened space if you have Threatening Reach) promts AOs, so does that apply to ranged as well as melee? Again, seems weird, but I think that's what it means, and the fact that Magic Missile is specifically mentioned as being able to be used for AOs backs that up... seems odd it's only for adjectent w/ ranged weapons, but would probably be a bit overpowered otherwise... ... however, I just saw that on page 290, it says: "OPPORTUNITY ATTACK: OPPORTUNITY ACTION
✦ Melee Basic Attack: An opportunity attack is a
melee basic attack (page 287)."
That implies you can only make OAs if you are using a melee weapon, and only with the basic attack.. in fact, more than implies, pretty much spells it out. And now I can't find the bit I saw saying you could use Magic missile that way... it had said paraphrased, 'you can use magic missile for powers or rules that say ranged basic attack, such as opportunity attacks'... I found that sentence, but it doesn't say the such as part.
Maybe I made the whole thing up, but anyone else notice this before? anyway, I guess that whole line is null.. nevermind on that.Next, do you flank with a ranged weapon? I know to flank you need to be adjacent, so you can't flank from a range, but can you flank point-blank? Daggers are a bad example, since you can use it melee or ranged, so let's say you have a crossbow in hand.
And last... if you are hidden, and fire a crossbow into someone's chest... are they aware of you? are you still hidden? do you have to make another immediate stealth roll against their passive, or do they get an immediate active? Any penalties to such rolls?
Could have sworn there were more, but I guess most of it comes down to the AOs on deft strike movement, and melee vs ranged potency of a dex rogue... I guess if you can only flank with melee weapons, the sneak attack damage will overshadow the extra damage from dex you'd have gotten... and looking at it again, really the only time you'd make a basic attack is for attacks of opportunity, all the first level at-will powers use dex based attack and damage rolls, except Riposte's special... So really I guess it just comes down to such a rogues AOs being weak... which itself seems odds, it seems like rogue AOs should be the most lethal...
So anything I'm missing, or did I answer all my own questions?
