Who's a minion? You are!

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Caliber

Explorer

• Jul 10, 2008

• #1

Sorry if this has been discussed before ... I scrolled through 15 pages looking for a similar topic before giving up!

Last night my group had a pretty lengthy debate re: whether or not our characters could tell which Kobolds were minions in the attacking horde, and which were not.

Some players held that the minions look physically different, and that we should easily be able to tell. Others thought a Monster Knowledge check that was high enough could tip us off. A third group held that there was no difference "in game" so to speak ... that minion-hood was a narrative construct, and that the minions were just unlucky schlubs there to be cut down.

Is there any kind of ruling on the matter? I don't think so myself. How do you play it?

Edit: The same question applies to other "types" as well of course. Do Elites and Solos stand out? Any thoughts on those?

 

Last edited: Jul 10, 2008

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C

Cadfan

First Post

• Jul 10, 2008

• #2

Yes, its obvious. Because when you get attacked by a big huge hulking hobgoblin, two kobolds with armor, swords, and shields, a kobold with robes and a staff with dead animal bits tied to it, and 12 kobolds with no armor and crappy weapons, it isn't that hard to figure it out.

At least in my game, I don't tell players which enemies are minions. But they figure it out just fine and I don't worry about it.

 

Wormwood

Adventurer

• Jul 10, 2008

• #3

DC 15, right?

 

Vyvyan Basterd

Adventurer

• Jul 10, 2008

• #4

I agree with Cadfan, but I voted No. Meaning that, as DM, I would never, even with a Monster Knowledge check, tell the players that one kobold is a "Kobold Minion" and another is a "Kobold Skirmisher." They have figured it out on their own with experience and I am fine with that.

 

Ashrem Bayle

Explorer

• Jul 10, 2008

• #5

Vyvyan Basterd said:

I agree with Cadfan, but I voted No. Meaning that, as DM, I would never, even with a Monster Knowledge check, tell the players that one kobold is a "Kobold Minion" and another is a "Kobold Skirmisher." They have figured it out on their own with experience and I am fine with that.

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Same. It's a narrative device, not something they can immediately see.

In my Keep on the Shadowfell game, in the second kobold encounter, I used the same miniature I use for minions to represent the Kobold Skirmisher. They kinda ignored him, assuming he was a minion. They got a nice surprise there and learned a good lesson: Don't assume you can pick out minions with metagame thinking.

 

Grazzt

Demon Lord

• Jul 10, 2008

• #6

Vyvyan Basterd said:

I agree with Cadfan, but I voted No. Meaning that, as DM, I would never, even with a Monster Knowledge check, tell the players that one kobold is a "Kobold Minion" and another is a "Kobold Skirmisher." They have figured it out on their own with experience and I am fine with that.

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This. Few times I've used minions, I never told the players. They figured it out on their own (or they didn't in some cases). Either way, nope. No Knowledge check regardless of the result should tell players that info.

 

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Nightson

First Post

• Jul 10, 2008

• #7

I would say almost every time. Scanning through the MM it seems like most minions are distinguished either visually or through different equipment, look at the illustration for skeletons for example. Now, the only difference between the Kobold minion and the Kobold Skirmisher is that one carries three javelins and the other carries a spear. That's not a terribly big difference, I might require a perception check to notice it, but it is a difference.

Of course just because they can notice the difference doesn't always mean they'll be able to tell which ones are normal and which ones are minions.

 

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drothgery

First Post

• Jul 10, 2008

• #8

I voted no, but that's not quite right. If, say, a non-minion kobold is leading kobold minions, then the non-minion is going to be described as looking different (clothes, equipment, may possibly look physically tougher). But there aren't any identifying marks that clearly mean 'this creature is a minion'. You only find that out (or guess at it) when they start dropping in one hit.

 

CharlesRyan

Adventurer

• Jul 10, 2008

• #9

I'm going to disagree with most of the posters here and say that minionness probably is something that should be fairly obvious to the players.

Think of Indiana Jones and the Nazis or Luke and Han versus the stormtroopers. Rarely do the protagonists or the audience suffer any confusion over which bad guys are the ones that really matter vs. which are there pretty much just to act as a speedbump (or an en mass challenge) to the heroes.

And given the players will know that the kobolds with spears are minions as soon as a PC hits (or is hit by) one, what advantage is there to secrecy? The only way to maintain that secrecy is to use the same type of mini for multiple types of monsters, and that seems like a whole lot of hassle for very little payoff.

Yes, minions are a narrative device (and a tactical one as well), but that doesn't mean their role in the narration is hidden. This guy looks like something special, while these guys look like common mooks. What's wrong with that?

 

Altamont Ravenard

Explorer

• Jul 10, 2008

• #10

CharlesRyan said:

Think of Indiana Jones and the Nazis or Luke and Han versus the stormtroopers. Rarely do the protagonists or the audience suffer any confusion over which bad guys are the ones that really matter vs. which are there pretty much just to act as a speedbump (or an en mass challenge) to the heroes.

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It's obvious to the spectator. Is it as obvious to Indy or Luke?

AR