Two-Weapon Fighting Rules?

Dausuul

Legend
I guess people just don't get my point that the Ranger class shouldn't be the only class to have the two-weapon fighting powers available to them w/o having to multi-class.

Every class does have two-weapon powers available to it. Take the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and then use any melee attack power; that is now a two-weapon power, since it is gaining the benefits (extra damage and so forth) of the Two-Weapon Fighting feat.

It's only a problem if you absolutely demand that two-weapon fighting must involve two attack rolls.
 

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tiornys

Explorer
I guess people just don't get my point that the Ranger class shouldn't be the only class to have the two-weapon fighting powers available to them w/o having to multi-class. I understand about game balance and whatnot, what I'm saying is that the game balance should have been looked at with all melee classes to allow all melee classes to have "powers" to two-weapon fight.
It's quite difficult to balance this across all "melee classes" within the current role-oriented system. Classical two-weapon fighting, i.e. gaining additional attacks, leads directly to higher damage output. In 4E, high damage output is the province of strikers. Allowing defenders (fighter, paladin) and leaders (warlord, some clerics) to readily double their damage output at the cost of a few feats (which are far more abundant in 4E than in 3.5E) makes it easy and inexpensive for them to take over the role of striker while still playing their normal role.

The original two-weapon fighting came from fighters/warriors, not rangers. The only reason the ranger class is the only class which has two-weapon fighting is because of Drizzt's popularity as a two-weapon wielding ranger, even though he started out as a two-weapon wielding fighter/warrior of the Drow. Just seems to me that the 4th edition rules creators didn't take this into account.
Fighters were originally the kings of melee damage output, as well as theoretically the damage sponge. 4E designers needed to assign roles to various classes, and in doing so chose to make the Fighter a defender rather than a striker. I think that choice fits better with the long time philosophy of the fighter, even if it infringes on some of the previous mechanical benefits of a fighter.

Similarly, they chose to make the ranger a striker. While it's probable that Drizzt influenced that choice, it makes sense from a long term flavor standpoint as well: the ranger has always been a lightly armored, wilderness based hunter-flavored version of a fighter. It's far easier to translate that flavor into a 4E striker than a 4E defender. Once you've chosen the striker role for the ranger, classical two-weapon fighting becomes a very reasonable thing to assign to the class.

So, while I sympathize with your frustration from a flavor standpoint, I can't agree with your arguments that the system would have been better served by allowing classical two-weapon fighting to be accessible by all or most classes, nor that the designers failed to consider historical context when creating the new system. 4E discards and/or modifies a ton of long-term D&D standards, and I'm confident that in each case, the decision to change was considered, contemplated, and probably agonized over by the designers.

t~
 

Lizard

Explorer
I am now confused.

If I am a 2WF ranger and take WP:Bastard Sword, I can wield one in each hand and use all my 2WF ranger powers, right?

If I then take the 2-weapon fighting *feat*, does it:
Apply if I'm using 2 bastard swords?
Apply only if I am using an "off hand" weapon in my, erm, off-hand?

(It seems weird to say "Oh, you can do all sort of cool tricks with two bastard swords because you're a ranger...but, uhm, you can't get a +1 to damage unless you swap out one of them for an 'off hand' weapon.")
 


Kordeth

First Post
I am now confused.

If I am a 2WF ranger and take WP:Bastard Sword, I can wield one in each hand and use all my 2WF ranger powers, right?

Right. Technically, you can do it even without WP: Bastard Sword, but you're out the proficiency bonus.

If I then take the 2-weapon fighting *feat*, does it:
Apply if I'm using 2 bastard swords?

Yes, but only if you're a 2WF ranger. Other characters can't wield non-off-hand weapons in their off hand.

Apply only if I am using an "off hand" weapon in my, erm, off-hand?

The feat just says "a melee weapon in each hand," no mention of size or property.

(It seems weird to say "Oh, you can do all sort of cool tricks with two bastard swords because you're a ranger...but, uhm, you can't get a +1 to damage unless you swap out one of them for an 'off hand' weapon.")

Luckily it doesn't say that. ;)
 

Lizard

Explorer
The feat just says "a melee weapon in each hand," no mention of size or property.

So, uhm, what does the off-hand property actually DO in the game?

It's not needed for a ranger to wield his off-hand weapon.
It's apparently not needed to take 2WF feat.

So what's it for?

Not trying to be an ass here...sometime between next week and 6 months from now, my DM is switching to 4e, and I have a cool concept for a 2WF ranger, and I want to make sure I know the rules and not get tripped up by importing 3e-isms.
 

Danceofmasks

First Post
Well, if two-weapon fighting doesn't necessarily involve hitting with two weapons in 6 seconds, then fighters can do it just fine.

Fighter stands his ground. Whacks something with bastard sword.
Minion attempts to get by, Fighter hacks him with hand-axe.
Another minion at a distance. Fighter wants to hold his position (to block the brutes), so he throws hand axe, which returns 'cos it's magical.
Boss-man is using a minion as a meat shield. Fighter uses passing attack to mush the minion with hand axe, then shifts forwards to hack at boss with bastard sword.

Sure looks like two weapon fighting to me.

But hey, the fighter can't twin strike! is not a valid complaint, 'cos he swings in 12 seconds instead of 6, but he swings harder.

Edit:
@Lizard, off-hand property is for rogues, etc. who aren't rangers.
Or archery rangers who want to use their powers to 2WF on occasion.
 

Dalzig

First Post
The implied rule for off-hand is that you can not hold two one-handed weapons, unless one of them contains the off-hand property. No rule outright says this but it is accepted even in the CO forums, which should say something.
 

Lizard

Explorer
The implied rule for off-hand is that you can not hold two one-handed weapons, unless one of them contains the off-hand property. No rule outright says this but it is accepted even in the CO forums, which should say something.

Is this for non-rangers only, or am I not going to be able to be a twin-bastard-sword-wielding ass-kicker? (I can live without the 2WF feats, though of course they'd be nice if I can get them..)

I *know* my DM is going to give me the Patented Raised Eyebrow when I present my build, so I'd like to have something to back me up...
 

Danceofmasks

First Post
Two-Blade Fighting Style: Because of your focus on two-weapon melee attacks, you can wield a one-handed weapon in your off hand as if it were an off-hand weapon.

So rangers with that style 'pretend' all one-handed weapons have the off-hand property.
 

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