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Currently I have very little interest in drow in general, but I do care about how they are implemented in the game world at large and the value of their established niche in D&D. I definitely propose we keep them evil more often than not; to my understanding that's one of the primary appeals to many drow players.

We need something that is evil. We already have a rather liberal attitude towards the monsterous races. And if the Drow were once Eladrin we have a sort of built in method for allowing good Drow, they simply harken back to the recent past.

Personally I would rather have Drow PCs reflect the races nature and force a good Drow to face stigma, etc., from their choice. Lets face it the good Drow has been done to death, and part of the races chief appeal - to me at least - has always been their ruthless vindictive, kill, murder, poison, mentality. From my perspective making the Drow a force of unmitigated evil makes them more, not less, appealing. We even have a built in focus for goodish Drow the Temple of Night and day.

I think that if we scale back the Drows evil we render them less interesting and do them a disservice. My take is that we will have more people wishing to play them if they are evil than otherwise.

Atanatotatos said:

we KNOW that a lot of people will want to play drows. Do we really have to make them utterly evil or absolutely mad this time too?

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Yes! Because that is half the reason so many will want to play them. If the Drow are not evil they are not Drow, they are just another sissy elf race.

Well, I didn't mean having drows as a non-evil race. Just... it seems to me that drows are usually probably the most evil race among the humanoids, they're not just evil they're... uber evil... and yet, they're generally the most played monstruous race... wtf??? Where do all these good drows come from if there's not the slightest place for mercy or kindness in their society?
I have always found Drizz't story a bit unreasonable because before meeting his honorable master (the exception to the ruthlessness in the society) he should have been already utterly corrupt, though young.
Yes, i am a determinist, I know.

On a different tack, I would appreciate any information on the Veritas. Particularily I was considering the possibility of a Drow Verita, which I am aware could be potentially problematic. Thoughts? Are the Veritas antin Imperium enough to include a Drow?

Why is it so important "how much" drow are evil? Can't we just place them as "usually evil" and be done with it? If you leave things open, DMs have more room to mold their own take for their own adventures.

Halford said:

It was at this point that Allakar, named them Drow, after the total annihalation of the Imperial City of Reidara which had been a stronghold of the rebellion. The Drow killed every last man, woman, child, and animal, they salted the earth and called it an example.

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Halford's take is obviously very evil, ie. "Forgotten Realms drow evil". That's fine with me. We can also have them very lightly evil, to provide easier background for those interested in playing non-evil drow PCs. That's fine with me too.
It’s not terribly important to me which route is taken, but if people are very divided on this topic I suggest we leave it loosely defined.

Keep in mind, we're just talking about the rough overall picture here - you can have drow societies that are more or less like the norm for their race. I would imagine that the Dauntonian drows that are associated with the Temple on average are less so, while those living in a semi-classic Underdark domain on average are more so. So if a player wants to play Drizzt-like he can use the former, and if he wants utter villainy he can use the latter. Anything in between could come from either background or a different drow society altogether (or have grown up in a non-drow society).

The thing that always annoyed me about classic Drow isn't that they're evil and matriarchal and whatnot, it's that they're so... homogenous. You seen one Drow, you seen 'em all. I think a lot of the problems with Drow, especially in a living world, would go away if they were a bit less unified of purpose. Humans, Elves, Eladrin, etc. don't all have the same alignment / philosophy / religious outlook; why should Drow?

Just for the record, the drow purge isn't 1000 years ago. It's "some undefined but long time ago". I don't mind the idea that a few eladrin in the Imperium (who may live a 1000 years or so) have heard about the drow from their great grandfathers.

I don't see why we need to have eladrin psychology be just like human psychology, or why we need to say that the drow thing happened 20,000 years ago or didn't make sense.

Eladrin, in particular, are fey. The Veritas thing (which I called the maddness in the original writeup) is a massive and complete transformation of a chunk of eladrin society. It had been building for a long time; but the actual petition to the goddess, the transformation of the eladrin into elves and the beginning of the campaign of assassination happened very quickly.

I see no reason why we can't have non-humans work differently than humans (especially fey).

[d]--[/d]


I think these three "quotes" really capture my feeling on the subject.

We should be flexible, and while keeping drow as evil, not try to force one tight definition. (it won't work anyway really).

covaithe said:

, it's that they're so... homogeneous. You seen one Drow, you seen 'em all. I think [they should be] a bit less unified of purpose. Humans, Elves, Eladrin, etc. don't all have the same alignment / philosophy / religious outlook; why should Drow?

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Dunamin said:

Why is it so important "how much" drow are evil? Can't we just place them as "usually evil" and be done with it? If you leave things open, DMs have more room to mold their own take for their own adventures.

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Atanatotatos said:

we KNOW that a lot of people will want to play drows. Do we really have to make them utterly evil or absolutely mad this time too?

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I do think we should respect the desire to have drow be evil. I have an idea for how to explain that "mechanically" (not a really mechanic, just a story tool). I go into more detail below.

[d]--[/d]

This... is a brilliant idea. It's an extension of what I was going for, but articulated with a lot more verve.

I haven't totally incorporated it into the suggestion below, since I think that people will want to play more traditional drow. And a lot of the drow powers and abilities don't really match with those of an earth goddess.

I also think we can evil play around a bit with Lolth as a Lillith (i.e. wife of adam) type character (with Lauto/Hadeys as an unlikely Adam figure)

KenHood said:

You could have the Drow worship Gaia.

In their religion, Gaia was abused by the titans and manipulated by the current batch of gods. They would see the earth-mother as corrupted and enslaved by all of the other species, so they have dedicated themselves to purging the world of those that worship the false gods--and eliminating all other life, save their own (the one, true race).

Makes them something along the lines of Nazi environmentalists. They believe their doing good, but they'll kill, maim, torture, etc. to do it.

Their whole thing about fighting amongst one another, weeding out the weak children, and so forth would be an aspect of their earth-mother worship. To whit, imitating the forces of natural selection to create a more powerful species.

And if they worship Gaia, it explains why they live under the earth: they want to get as close to the heart of their goddess as possible.

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How about this.:

• Originally there was this intense matriarchal earth cult of Eladrin that got ejected from the Imperium very violently.
• They traveled to some particularly hostile place in the elemental plane of earth that is supposed to be close to gaia; where they form a small city [ken's idea]
• Life was hard, gaia can't help her followers directly (she's been imprisoned by the gods and helpless in the deepest core of the elemental plane of earth)
• Lolth comes in disguise offering herself as gaia's daughter; at first everyone embraces her, but some become wary.
  • Lolth is/was a demi-goddess; a favored consort of Lauto/Hadeys she was something else originally, some sort of demon from the Shadowfell. And she was his favorite until he became infatuated with Peresefa/Proserphones
• Lolth reveals herself and completes the transformation of most of the refugees into the drow. The transformation is justified along the lines of the existing religious beliefs (hiding underground etc) Those that resist are forcibily converted through torture, magical coercion, and in some cases the goddess' personal touch. etc. However this has several effects:
  • The gods are not amused. Mortals are made to worship them, and while none of them are particularly unhappy to see titian worshipers get their due, nor to does any one of them personally want to get into a fight with Lolth (she is a goddess, or something like it). So they pass, as a pantheon a sort of law: That drow shall have choice. This can help explain how some drow, born into an evil society, suddenly and radically break free. > Good drow
  • The "true followers of gaia" (call them Gaians) avoid he taint of corruption, they are captured and tortured. As mentioned above most are effectively forcibly converted. However a few hold out their extreme privation, performed on top of Gaia's prision; somehow acts as a sympathetic magical effect, allowing Gaia to stir (this totals the city and allows a handful of Gaians to escape). (Did Lolth know and plan this? Is Lolth tapping into Gaia's power somehow through the crack in her prision?) > True Gaians
  • A few of the drow, in some cases their torturers, who were corrupted by lolth realize that they were wrong. Newly changed by lolth (before the curse is fully effective and/or as a result of the passage of the gods law) they manage to shake off the direct connection to Lolth and escape with the Tue Gaians. > Gaian Drow [ken's idea]
  • Another group converts to Lolth, but does so for practical reasons, they want a patron. A god, who grants spells and can get them out of the hellhole that is the deep elemental chaos that they've trapped themselves in. They don't really appreciate the degree of sadistic insanity that they're in for, and within a few generations they've basically thrown themselves at Lauto/Hadey's mercy. > Shadar-Kai
• Over time the drow themselves wind up fragmenting. Lolth moves them off the elemental chaos and into various positions.
• Some travel to her plane develop unique abilities > dark warlocks/infernalists, driders, drow-demon hybrids, drow/shades, etc
• Some are sent to form "core communities" on material planes (or their equivalent); to grow in strength and number and allow her to to flourish as a real goddess with real worshipers. Their infamy increases her infamy
• Some are sent to serve her existing agents, or placed on permanent other powers (usually) evil. So drow can turn up anywhere really, often times from a clan that has served that dark force (often by aiding it's agents) for centuries or longer
• Others were sent as spies and servants. Tainted by Lolth's touch they grant her indirect information about all the worlds and planes they travel to. Most are 'evil' in 3.x talk, but probably unaligned in 4e. Some may turn to good, but lolths touch means that she gets insight and awareness about the plane they dwell upon. And sooner or later they will have children who are strongly tainted by her touch and who seek her out to fulfill their destiny.

Key points:

• Lolth and the drow-related races are now more closely tied into the overall religious framework established (I do not love "free floating" gods).
• It keeps the elf-like races connected in a way that makes sense.
• Lolth is now an up and coming demi-goddess; one who hates Peresefa/Proserphones and has a complex relationship with Lauto (she hates him, but we can leave room for more. She'd love to supplant him, torture him, and ultimately have him embrace her as a subordinate devoted follower -- this could explain why she helped crack the titan's prision in the first place).
• Drow are tainted and evil; that taint persists. A given drow may escape or resist it; but that doesn't mean that their children are all shiny happy little carebears. They're prone to the same sadistic impulses, extreme selfishness, desire to dominate that all drow are.
• There are lots of different kinds of drow.
• But many of those different kinds are e-v-i-l.
• The drow are part of a larger play by Lolth, one that allows her to increase her power and status. She needs people to know of her, before they can fear (or even worship) her. A small, evil goddess, and the current priesthood of the gods doesn't talk about her (except to say that she used to be a demon, and got dumped by Lauto when something better came along)
  • Good drow don't hurt her PR....After all, if one lone drow shows up, and is sorta nice and the bestest swordsman ever and talks all the time about how there is a whole race of people who are just as bad ass as he is, but evil and they worship the crazies evilist godess ever... if you were inclined toward evil, wouldn't that be a walking advertisement that maybe you should consider "upgrading your religious choice".

Current status of the races
True Gaians may appear as NPCs or PCs, they're extremely rare. They aren't drow, nor are they eladrin. They're like supercharged genasi elves; or something even more extreme (no longer have physical bodies but just project themselves into plants)
Gaian Drow are drow who were tainted by Lolth, but freed when the first city was destroyed during the cracking of Gaia's prison. They helped the True Gaian's escape, and their connection to Lolth has been severed but they're still dark-skinned underground-living elves; albeit nature worshiping pagan types. They have sadistic impulses, etc, but they don't have that innate connection to Lolth that drags them toward evil.

Drow (see above) - Basically the drow don't know their own history. They know they were ejected from eden-equivalent (probably for being pure and good) and lolth came to save them when they would have been destroyed. Generally they think that they've embraced evil because it's the one true path; some are evil for evils sake. Some have a more complex set of religiuos beleifs (as befits creatures with high intelligence) they feel that they are only evil because the gods made the world this way, and that Lolth has simply taught them to be evil because that's the only way to get by. She is cruel to because she loves them.

The Mechanism for Good Drow and it's ramifications: Each drow, in principal, gets a personal choice between good an evil, this is a magical effect produced by the collective will of the 12 gods. Lolth does her darnest to make sure that they choose evil (so the sadism of drow society isn't just an affectation, it's an essential part of Lolth's grand plan, and her priesthood is very well rewarded for maintaining it)*=This has always bugged me. A prohibition on directly slaying them helps main "killing good drow" a management issue. If she has limited resources then it becomes a decision that makes more sense.

If they're her direct servants and they rebel? I don't think it would be strange to just see that person suddenly collapse as they're consumed from the inside out by a massive horde of spiders.
We've given our gods a sort of smite you with a lightning bolt if I want to feel I think we should be consistent about that, (even when we deviate it should be consistent)

Shadar-kai are a kind of mirror drow, they gave themselves to Lauto/Hadeys because they knew thatShadar-kai piercing and mortification is an attempt to demonstrate their devotion to her; it's the sort of thing Lolth would love. But Peresefa/Proserphones is not into it -- they want her to accept them for who they are, she can't (it's the stuff of teenage drama I suppose). They still are warped (so they're evil and sadistic and all that) but they aren't connected to Lolth directly.

Graf said:

And a lot of the drow powers and abilities don't really match with those of an earth goddess.

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Actually...

If you consider Asian philosophy, earth is a feminine element, associated with the yin principle.

If Gaia is the exemplar of yin, then other yin attributes, such as darkness, 'stickiness' (i.e., webs), and so forth fit.

Also, to fit Lolth more into a Greek mythos, consider that Gaia birthed MANY monsters. One of these was Echidna, the mother of all monsters. Lolth could be one of the spawn of Echidna. Hence, her monstrous (spider) nature.

Or Lolth could be the Arachne counterpart in this universe. She was an important fey, who got uppity and boasted of her weaving skills. Athena comes down and transforms her into a spider. She nurses a grudge, finds a bunch of people to manipulate (i.e., the drow), and goes to town against the gods.

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The Arachne angle sounds better than the Echidna. It gives Lolth a reason to hate the gods and invest so much effort into their destruction.

Why not both?

Echidna is a great creature to have in the background of the campaign.

Arachne is also fantastic for the spider connection.

But we need to be a bit careful because of the whole demon thing. Lolth is/was a spider demon that ascended to god-hood I think people will want to keep that. A more radical reinterpretation would be fun, but frankly, people want to play things that are "close" to DnD.
We can give the spider demon an interesting story, and make it part of a larger story that involves an earth goddess, but -don't- think we can just ditch the S&M spider demon angle.

Perhaps Echidna gave birth to an infinite multitude of creatures, many of which were cast into the hells? All were monsters, but a handful were not physically ugly...

Proto-Lolth, was a perfected sort of deviless that ruled a perfectly ordered city on the material plane, bragged of her cities perfect order (an extension of her own beauty) and was struck down by Juna who said that her absolute order was a web that strangled life?

• So she creates webs instead of laws to bind people.
  • But she still wants to dominate people (a focus of drow society)
  • to have a pecking order (another focus of drow society in the books)
  • and to rule cities devoted to her.
• She hid her ugliness in darkness and fled to the Shadowfell (where she fell in with Lauto)
  • helps explain drow shadow powers
  • and "dark" pact warlocks if we have them.
  • Why drow are so physically attractive (i.e. she's living vicariously)

Just trying to work it all together.