Discussing 4e Subsystems: POWERS!

Bagpuss · Nov 10, 2008

justanobody said:
What I mean by those 3 things is that that is all you get to do with no diversity.

Effect allows for a huge amount of diversity.

justanobody · Nov 10, 2008

Bagpuss said:
Effect allows for a huge amount of diversity.

Not really when it is just the same 7 effects mixed with X[W] damage.

You are still only doing one of 7 effects and/or some damage.

Meaning there are only really 8 different types of attacks/powers.

RGB offers 16 million colors, but they are all still made from only 3.

So you are just combining a few rudimentary things to make all these other things.

What if you don't want to do one of those 7 effects, or damage, but something else?

And I am not even talking about how silly some of the powers are. Like Sleep requiring a burst of effect, rather than just being able to put a single person to sleep.

The effects are not all they are cracked up to be.

Fifth Element · Nov 10, 2008

justanobody said:
Meaning there are only really 8 different types of attacks/powers.

RGB offers 16 million colors, but they are all still made from only 3.

So you are just combining a few rudimentary things to make all these other things.

What if you don't want to do one of those 7 effects, or damage, but something else?

You seem to be contradicting yourself. The example that you yourself give provides 16 million outputs from just 3 basic inputs. So why are you complaining that there are only 8 basic inputs in 4E, given the number of outputs that can result?

Mustrum_Ridcully · Nov 10, 2008

Bagpuss said:
Effect allows for a huge amount of diversity.

Indeed. The first time I saw the power write-up, I wonder how those "odd" spells would work. Would they be relegated to Rituals?

Then I read the Bigby's Icy Grasp write-up. And my skepticism went away.
The concept was sound and still allows those "odd-ball" magical effects that always made D&D magic so different from, say, Shadowrun magic. If you know one Shadowrun combat spell, you basically knew them all.

RefinedBean · Nov 10, 2008

justanobody said:
Empowering the player's creativity should be a function of the game, not a job for the DM.

Very much agree with this. Where we disagree, I believe, is that I feel 4E accomplishes this, while you do not. C'est la vi.

WhatGravitas · Nov 10, 2008

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Then I read the Bigby's Icy Grasp write-up. And my skepticism went away.
The concept was sound and still allows those "odd-ball" magical effects that always made D&D magic so different from, say, Shadowrun magic. If you know one Shadowrun combat spell, you basically knew them all.

True, the D&D magic system is probably one of the most quirkiest, I'm also glad that they conserved some of the quirky spells, though I hoped a bit that they'd tie more powers to the stunt system a bit more explicitly, so you could get more freeform-style magic (I mean it works, but it's a bit clunky).

Cheers, LT.

justanobody · Nov 10, 2008

RefinedBean said:
Very much agree with this. Where we disagree, I believe, is that I feel 4E accomplishes this, while you do not. C'est la vi.

I just feel like they are like eating the box rather than the cereal inside it...

Lacyon · Nov 10, 2008

Remathilis said:
However, if a rogue, wizard, and fighter, all with proficiency in the same weapon (all of them are eladrin, so they all have longswords) the difference is only the variance in Str score +1 (for the fighter wpn talent). This is a large deviation from the difference in Thac0 or Bab that existed previously. (Again, this was needed to give fighters combat superiority, something technically not needed in an era of fighter powers and class abilities.) The oddity comes in those weird corner cases (lets say our three eladrin all have the same str score, so the fighter is only +1 to hit better than the wizard when making an opportunity attack) though in play it typically seems much more varied (due to wizards having higher int and rogues higher dex, emphasizing those scores over str)

The Fighter's +1 to hit better than the wizard on that opportunity attack if his Wisdom is 10-11. Otherwise, he's got a bigger difference. Plus the fighter stops movement if he hits with that opp attack, and can mark the target whether he hits or misses (potentially enabling a Combat Challenge attack against that opponent later in the turn).

These are much larger differences at low levels than the BAB/THAC0 difference from prior editions, and except for the Wisdom bonus, carry over to other basic attacks with any weapon (melee or ranged). Even at high levels, the difference is pretty big, especially if the Fighter pumps his wisdom. And gets even larger if the Wizard and Fighter don't maintain strength parity. Etc.

Jhaelen · Nov 11, 2008

justanobody said:
Granted it doesn't exist now, but an instant kill spell from a utility spell is what I call creativity!

Unfortunately, that's the kind of creativity that I absolutely don't like to see in my games. Stone To Mud may be a borderline case, there's been more extreme 'creative' abuses of spells in the past. This kind of creativity is part of the reason why 3E became so complicated because it tried to prevent any loopholes.

Thinking of a clever trick that allows a spell to be way more effective than its level indicates shouldn't be possible, even if it seems to be fine by RAW. To exaggerate the point:

Being able to turn a cantrip into an auto-kill spell is not desirable.

Creative uses of spells must always be in line with the spells' level. And it's not limited to spells either. There's a reason the 4E DMG suggests a damage progression for freestyle maneuvers. Thinking out of the box is fun - provided it doesn't imbalance the game.

Bagpuss · Nov 11, 2008

justanobody said:
Not really when it is just the same 7 effects mixed with X[W] damage.

You are still only doing one of 7 effects and/or some damage.

Care to list these 7 effects?

Because I can see powers that do...

Push
Pull
Slide
Force Movement
Heal
Give temporary hit points
Blind
Deafen
Daze
Dominate
Immobilize
Slow
Stun
Knock prone
Weaken
Mark

Deal Damage in the X[W] mode
Deal Damage via zones
Deal Ongoing Damage
Deal damage in other means

I see powers that allow for flight
I see powers that allow for teleport
I see powers that give bonuses to skill checks
I see powers that give bonuses to defenses

and I could go on.

What are these limited seven effects you are talking about?