Discussing 4e Subsystems: POWERS!

[pemerton]

Could you explain what this means, please?

By "transparency", I'm meaning a system in which the action resolution mechanics (and perhaps also the character build mechanics) are the "physics" of the gameworld - so if you know what's happening in the gameworld you know how to mechanically interpret it, and vice versa. Runequest fits this description, as does Classic Traveller. Rolemaster does at the action resolution stage but not the character build stage. Any more "modern" or "indie" RPG probably does not (eg HeroWars/Quest, The Dying Earth) - in these games the mechanics are often distributing narrative control among players and GM rather than simply modelling the gameworld. 4e is more like this second sort of game than any previous version of D&D.

But D&D has always been a bit of a mix between transparency and non-transparency (eg very few people take the hit point rules as a completely literal model with no need for ad hoc narrative glossing) - hence the second part of my post above.

 

[firesnakearies]

By "transparency", I'm meaning a system in which the action resolution mechanics (and perhaps also the character build mechanics) are the "physics" of the gameworld - so if you know what's happening in the gameworld you know how to mechanically interpret it, and vice versa. Runequest fits this description, as does Classic Traveller. Rolemaster does at the action resolution stage but not the character build stage. Any more "modern" or "indie" RPG probably does not (eg HeroWars/Quest, The Dying Earth) - in these games the mechanics are often distributing narrative control among players and GM rather than simply modelling the gameworld. 4e is more like this second sort of game than any previous version of D&D.

But D&D has always been a bit of a mix between transparency and non-transparency (eg very few people take the hit point rules as a completely literal model with no need for ad hoc narrative glossing) - hence the second part of my post above.

Oh. Thanks for clarifying!

 

[justanobody]

Oh. Thanks for clarifying!

Hell, I am still confused at what it being said....All those other game references take everything out of context when you are talking about D&D only and don't play every game on the market.

 

[pemerton]

All those other game references take everything out of context when you are talking about D&D only and don't play every game on the market.

The reason I refer to those other games - and some of them, like RuneQuest and Traveller have been around for 30 or so years, nearly as long as D&D - is that it is (in my view) very hard to understand the design motivations behind 4e without recognising that it is highly influenced by what has been going on in game design more generally over the past 10 or so years.

 

[justanobody]

The reason I refer to those other games - and some of them, like RuneQuest and Traveller have been around for 30 or so years, nearly as long as D&D - is that it is (in my view) very hard to understand the design motivations behind 4e without recognizing that it is highly influenced by what has been going on in game design more generally over the past 10 or so years.

Still not helping me figure out what I am being accused of doing...

Now to be fair, JustaNobody's playstyle isn't invalid. I believe the term that gets tossed about is "Avatar" play where your character is an extention of yourself into the game world. There's nothing wrong with this.

To add to this: it is obvious - and has been since before the books were released - that 4e is not a game that is designed for players who want to maximise the transparency of game and metagame.

Now I personally find it hard to imagine that those players were really satisfied with 3E either, but maybe it was just close enough to the line that they could tolerate it.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

The reason I refer to those other games - and some of them, like RuneQuest and Traveller have been around for 30 or so years, nearly as long as D&D - is that it is (in my view) very hard to understand the design motivations behind 4e without recognising that it is highly influenced by what has been going on in game design more generally over the past 10 or so years.

I agree.

Game Design doesn't happen in a vacuum, and it didn't only exist in D&D.

Most game designers (especially those currently at WotC) have a lot of game experience and have seen, played and possibly even developed more then just D&D. And this is influencing them, and that is a good thing.