How Important/Feasible is 3 good NADs?

With 3 NADs but only 2 ability score bumps, is it really possible to maintain 3 good NADs at high levels?

If it is possible, is it worth the cost? If not possible, is it better to have 2 good NADs and 1 bad one, or all 3 mediocre?

The best case I can think of is a Human Paladin with 16-14-14-13-10-8 ability scores, with the human stat bump in one of the 14s, giving 16-16-14-etc., for example Str 16 Dex 14 Cha 16. At Level 1, this gives defense of FD: 15 RD: 14 WD: 15.

Assume the Paladin takes the 3 Paragon tier NAD feats (Great Fortitude, Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes) and pushes one ability score every bump and splits the other bumps evenly between the other two. Assume the Demigod Epic Destiny. All that combined gives the following at level 30:

Str: 26
Dex: 20
Cha: 20 (or swap Str and Cha)

FD: 10 base + 15 (levels) + 8 (Str) + 2 (feat) + 6 (cloak) = 41
RD: 10 base + 15 (levels) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (feat) + 6 (cloak) = 38
WD: 10 base + 15 (levels) + 5 (Cha) + 2 (feat) + 6 (cloak) = 38

An Ancient Red Dragon (Level 30) is supposed to be a pretty easy encounter for a party full of such characters, but all 3 of the dragon's NAD attacks would have a +35 bonus and a very good chance of hitting, even if they were against FD, which they aren't.

Should we look at Orcus out of the corner of our eyes as we flee? His two NAD attacks are both against FD, at +33 and +38 respectively. But somehow, the idea that Orcus will *only* reduce our fearless Paladin to 0 hit points 65% of the time is not very reassuring. And that's for a Paladin deliberately built for NADs, at the cost of a low primary attack score.

Those are the two archetypal high-Epic-level challenges, and neither one gives me much confidence that there is a way to make NADs matter much at high levels.

What is the secret? Is it that Epic-level parties have all sorts of non-Defense ways to avoid taking damage or effects? Is it that situational bonuses tip the scales -- bonuses that I'm not taking into account? Is it that the right approach is *not* to try to balance the NADs, but to push 2 of them to high levels and ignore the third?

Or is it that no one actually tries to take on Orcus, or maybe that no one is really playing at high Epic levels?

I suspect the answer is that you do have a glass jaw--start with a 18/14/14 and for sake of argument you're a human str-adin . Using demigod, you raise str and wis or cha every chance you get, so they wind up at 28 and 24. You take the appropriate feats and have a +6 neck slot item. You ignore reflex except insofar as you have a heavy shield. Even lightning reflex is probably a waste of your time until you have feats to burn.

At level 30 your defenses are
10 base + 1 human + 1 class + 6 neck + 15 level + 2 feat + [9 (F) or 7 (W)] = 44 F or 42 W.

Now you start imposing penalties to hit on your enemies through status effects, the wizard and bard have an at-will that causes -2 to hit on all attacks, you learn to look for cover or concealment, etc., and you have a fighting chance. You get the swordmage to make it and then back off so it's hard to hit the swordmage and you, etc. No one said you could just walk right up to the red dragon and say "here we are, we've come to kill you"... you have to consider the powers you have to leverage to tip the battle back in your favor.

The secret is that yes, your defenses don't keep up.

However, you have a multitude of ways to recover or prevent that damage in the first place.

You have Immediate Interrupts to impose penalties or remove PCs from harm's way altogether.

PCs have powers that will completely undo whatever damage or status effect that the monster inflicts.

The battle is more fluid and tense that way rather than either side never hitting each other.

No matter how clever you think it is, or how often you use it, I am never going to buy NADs as an acronym. Ever.

I've found that two good NADs are generally the ideal number.

Perhaps the answer is: Ancient Red Dragons and Orcuses aren't your average level 30 challenge.

If you look at the rank-and-file monsters, that is, the monsters that will be behind perhaps 90% of the attacks against you at 30th level, perhaps you'll find your defenses to be adequate?

ProdigalTim said:

I've found that two good NADs are generally the ideal number.

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I've found that the achilles principle is ideal.
Make yourself nigh-invincible vs. AC, and possibly 1 (2 if you can manage it) other defense, and ignore the rest.
Now, the rest of the party should also do the same. By that I mean focus on the same defenses as each other.

The foes you face almost certainly won't all target 1 defense, so kill the foes that you're weak against first, and you're home free.

ProdigalTim said:

I've found that two good NADs are generally the ideal number.

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Indeed.

I question those who claim three NADs.

Cheers, -- N

Mistwell said:

No matter how clever you think it is, or how often you use it, I am never going to buy NADs as an acronym. Ever.

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I don't find it clever. I had the impression it was a standard usage here, and I needed a short term for my title. As I am not the juvenile Beavis and Butthead type who can't use or read a term without being titillated by a racy homophone, it never occurred to me that using it would arouse comment.

But, as the comments below indicate that my attitude is atypical, I will remember in the future to avoid such usages.

/1:1AdmixtureofSeriousAndSnark

CapnZapp said:

Perhaps the answer is: Ancient Red Dragons and Orcuses aren't your average level 30 challenge.

If you look at the rank-and-file monsters, that is, the monsters that will be behind perhaps 90% of the attacks against you at 30th level, perhaps you'll find your defenses to be adequate?

Click to expand...

I guess I don't know what you mean by "average". I keep reading here and on the official 4e site that parties should be fighting challenges that are up to 3 or 4 levels higher. Thus I assumed that for a 30th level party to fight a Level 30 challenge Ancient Red Dragon was thought to be on the easy side.