How Important/Feasible is 3 good NADs?

[Bumamgar]

Characters are not just the sum of their attributes and gear. It's all about strategic play and the modifiers provided by various powers. You can't just compare a PC's Will defense with a monster's vs. Will attack to determine if the combat will be 'easy'. You have to look at the party makeup as a whole, and the various conditions that will be imposed by the party member's powers during the course of what should be a dynamic and challenging battle.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Characters are not just the sum of their attributes and gear. It's all about strategic play and the modifiers provided by various powers. You can't just compare a PC's Will defense with a monster's vs. Will attack to determine if the combat will be 'easy'. You have to look at the party makeup as a whole, and the various conditions that will be imposed by the party member's powers during the course of what should be a dynamic and challenging battle.

That's a good point, and one I alluded to in my original post: "Is it that situational bonuses tip the scales -- bonuses that I'm not taking into account?" The question is, do those situational bonuses make it feasible to go for 3 good defenses, or not?

So far I've played two characters, neither of whom has reached Level 2 yet. I ask this question for practical reasons as well as theoretical: I'm wondering how to advance my character. I'm not a munchkin, but I want to have a solid character so that I can shift my focus from survival to role playing.

 

[feuer_faust]

At a glance, I'm not sure it's possible to send all three Non-armor class defenses (Or NADs for short) into the stratosphere. The game will basically make sure that you always have some weakness to bring you back down to level. Which is good: your opposition will have the same thing, so its fair all-around.

Also, Solos are a beefy challenge (all dragons, Orcus) for a party of five adventurers of their level. Not quite easy.

 

[Paul Strack]

My experience with 4E is that offensive considerations trump defensive considerations. When advancing your ability scores:

1) Always advance your primary attack ability score.

2) Advance you second ability score to improve secondary bonuses and to meet feat prerequisites.

3) Improving defenses is a tertiary consideration for ability score increases. Rely on magic items and feats to improve your defenses, plus situational power boosts from yourself and your allies.

 

[Mort_Q]

Non-armor class defenses (Or NADs for short)

Thanks... I was trying to figure out wtf people were on about.

 

[Dortmunder]

Non-armor class defenses (Or NADs for short)

Thank you! I was about to ask what the heck a "NAD" was...

/Not being snarky, seriously couldn't figure it out

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

I've found that two good NADs are generally the ideal number.

I find that even with two good NADs, one will always be lower than the other.

 

[Jack99]

Or is it that no one actually tries to take on Orcus, or maybe that no one is really playing at high Epic levels?

Some are, but I am guessing they are a very small minority. From polls around the boards, it seems that most people started 4e from scratch. And you can't really get a good idea on how the game works until you play up a character.

I guess I don't know what you mean by "average". I keep reading here and on the official 4e site that parties should be fighting challenges that are up to 3 or 4 levels higher. Thus I assumed that for a 30th level party to fight a Level 30 challenge Ancient Red Dragon was thought to be on the easy side.

3 levels over the average party is the maximum suggested by the books. Higher than that, and you most likely (very likely) will kill your players. TBH, it's fairly easy to do so at +2 already

Besides, just because they are solo mobs doesn't mean that you meet them on their own.

I find that even with two good NADs, one will always be lower than the other.

You might want to have a chat with a doctor, just in case..

 

[Nail]

With 3 NADs but only 2 ability score bumps, is it really possible to maintain 3 good NADs at high levels?

I just have to post in this thread, if only for this:

Maintaining 3 good NADs at high levels is a common problem in the filming industry. You should post your question there.

 

[shadowoflameth]

In my experience DMing and playing, being one dimensional should not be the bad word that it is often made out as. Each core class has defenses that they will tend to be good at. The paladin has a +1 boost to all three, but trying to 'keep up' with all three will waste resources and leave you with fewer options.

Up defenses in ways that are easy until you go paragon at least. A heavy shield gives you +2 Ref and AC, a good choice for paladins and fighters.

Fighters, paladin's and warlocks all have powers with boosts on a high Con, and wizards, rogues, and rangers have powers with benefits to from intelligence and other abilities.

For your paladin, if you want a defense tank, consider the heavy shield, and a high Con. if you start out with a 16 con, and focus on it, by 30th level as the demi-god you have con 26 (+8) level (+15) human (+1), class (+1), magic (+6), base (10) = fort 41 even without a feat. Consider multi-class feats to fighter instead of the defense boost feats. The fighter has a number of powers that benefit from high con on damage with as a hammer which you can use with your shield. So to does the warlock, and some of those use Con to hit as well. I like the warlock power shroud of black steel for the multi -class paladin. the defense boost is nice, and even in plate armor the speed penalty is negligable. consider mounted combat as a tactic to negate it. Then your feats will have been used to get you other benefits, and still take advantage of your high con. Other classes have abilities that they tend to naturally focus on. Remeber after that first round, it won't matter how high Orcus has to hit if he's prone, stunned, flanked, and blinded etc. which a whole party of 30th level characters ought to be able to dish out. If you each uncork your dailies right away, (which I imagine you would), at that level, if each member of the party isn't uncorking coupe de gras or at least multiple crits with the negative conditions being imposed with the damage, you're in real trouble against a level appropriate solo.