The Class Stat Forked Thread: Power Points for powers - solves a lot of issues

Sadrik · Jan 31, 2009

Forked from: Power Points for powers - solves a lot of issues

Sadrik said:
I suppose there could be a character with a 14 or 16 in their prime ability, however unlikely... Those characters should die soon anyway for a variety of reasons: they will drag the party down, cause real time grind problems for everyone sitting at the table.

I suppose if you divorce the idea of stats from class abilities completely. Not a bad idea actually, give everyone a new ability/attribute called "class" make it a 20/+5 and then everyone has the same ability with everything. You could have a weak fighter, an uncharismatic paladin etc. This is a good idea actually. but perhaps for another thread.

How do you feel about this HR?

FireLance · Jan 31, 2009

Actually, I would ask the broader question of whether it is necessary for your ability scores to affect your other modifiers in the first place. Instead, players could directly select the benefits and modifiers they want, and if you want to retain ability scores to help a person visualize and role-play his character, you could have them be affected by the benefits selected instead of the other way around.

Classes would determine the character's base modifiers and ability scores. For example. a paladin would have a base Initiative modifier of +0, 27 hit points, 11 healing surges, +3 Fortitude, +1 Reflex, +3 Will. Attack and damage bonuses could be governed by newly-defined modifiers, e.g. Power which affects paladin attacks with the weapon keyword, and Spirit which affects paladin attacks with the implement keyword (both of these would initially be set at +2). He would also have base ability scores of Str 14, Con 12, Dex 10, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 14

If he selects dwarf as his race, he gains +1 Fortitude, +1 Will, +2 hit points, and +1 healing surge. In addition, he increases his Con and Wis by +2.

The player may then customize his character by selecting feats. If he wanted a better Initiative modifier, he could select Improved Initiative to gain +4 to initiative checks. In addition, he would increase his Dex by +2.

This approach would take a lot of work to implement fully, and it would kill another D&D sacred cow: the idea that your ability scores define your benefits, and instead reduce ability scores to things that have no mechanical effect, but are defined by your other choices. In other words, a character will no longer have a high Initiative modifier, a high Reflex defense and a high attack bonus with projectile weapons because he has a high Dexterity. Instead, if he has a high Dexterity because he has a high Initiative modifier, a high Reflex defense and a high attack bonus with projectile weapons.

Stalker0 · Feb 1, 2009

FireLance said:
Actually, I would ask the broader question of whether it is necessary for your ability scores to affect your other modifiers in the first place.

The answer is of course...no. Ability scores could mean very little. For example, in Savage Worlds your stats don't have a direct impact on most of your abilities, your ability score places a cap on the level of skill you can have before things become more expensive.

But ultimately the question becomes...do people like having ability scores tied to their other modifiers? I think the answer in many cases is yes. It makes sense, and its easy to do.

When considering this houserule, you have to determine how detached you want your other modifiers to be from stats.

There's a popular idea going on right now that a character's attack bonus is +4 (at heroic) or your prime stat, whichever is higher. That means someone with a low prime stat would still have a decent attack bonus, but would have weaker damage. In this fashion, damage remains tied to a stat, where attack bonus does not...at least much less so.

keterys · Feb 1, 2009

I like the idea to make the attack bonus independent of ability score more than completely divorcing them... the class's primary ability score still determines their damage, then, but otherwise people are on an even footing.

It certainly makes some classes, like warlocks and paladins, far more accessible to do so. Not sure if that's a bug or feature.

BarkingDeathSquirrel · Feb 1, 2009

Stalker0 said:
There's a popular idea going on right now that a character's attack bonus is +4 (at heroic) or your prime stat, whichever is higher. That means someone with a low prime stat would still have a decent attack bonus, but would have weaker damage. In this fashion, damage remains tied to a stat, where attack bonus does not...at least much less so.

I'm intending to use something similar:

Everyone has a +4 attack base (+5 at 8th, +6 at 14th, +7 at 21st, and +8 at 27th), if your relevant ability score modifier (ie: Str for Fighter powers and basic melee attacks, etc) is higher, you get a +1 bonus. So... a Fighter at 1st level with 20 Strength would have a +5 attack bonus with any Str-based attacks, but a theoretical Fighter with 22 Str at 1st still has a +5 attack bonus, but does more damage.
Note: This is done mainly to prevent the Demigod and other Epic destines with +Ability Score bonuses from being anymore powerful then they already are

If your relevant ability score modifier is negative, however, you get a -1 penalty. So, a Wizard with 8 Strength at 1st level only has a +3 base attack modifier when making a Str-based attack.

This keeps the base attack bonuses within a certain range, but still provides a bit of variety in the attack bonuses possible.

I also thought of something similar for defenses:

If both relevant ability score modifiers are greater than 0, you get a +1 bonus to that defense. If both are negative, you get a -1 penalty to that defense.

Not really sure if I actually want to use that, though...

keterys said:
It certainly makes some classes, like warlocks and paladins, far more accessible to do so. Not sure if that's a bug or feature.

I consider it a feature, in fact, it was one of my main reasons for wanting to adopt this rule.

Multiclassing outside your Prime Attribute is a much more attractive option under this rule, as well. It also lets players shore up weaker defenses without sacrificing as much offense. You might also see players using certain types of attacks that they wouldn't before, like a Fighter using a bow instead of a heavy thrown weapon (but I kinda doubt this, honestly

)

Of course, I can't shake off the feeling that this rule actually makes a class's Prime Attribute less important than Secondary/Tertiary scores (The Fighter in particular seems to suffer from this), but *shrugs* I'm mostly fine with that.