Weapon/Implement Expertise: +1 to-hit?! Yuck!

yesnomu · Feb 2, 2009

Check out the DDXP char sheets here:
Hordelings: Miniatures Enthusiasts -- 4th Edition Discussion: Delve Characters Players Handbook 2

Remember that the 1/2 level is already added in the listed ability modifiers, it doesn't get added again.

So. Feats that add a +1 feat (hopefully not untyped) bonus to-hit for a weapon or implement group. I have to say, this makes me very unhappy. What happened to the carefully balanced math, Wizards? This is a new must-have feat; no character would turn down something like this. Just look at the DDXP sheets: the Sorc, Barb and Avenger all have it. That counts as "overpowered" in my book.

Not only that, but now some of the best feats in the game are totally eclipsed. Hellfire Blood? Used to make Tiefling Fighters with a Flame Weapon a choice worth considering, now irrelevant even for most Wizards. Might be good for some Warlocks, I guess. Nimble Blade? Maybe if there's room left over in my build. Ugh.

If Wizards has decided that D&D characters need to hit more, there were many better ways to implement it. Reduce all upcoming monsters' defenses by one, and errata the MM ones and DMG charts commensurately. Errata the PHB to give PCs a +1 Awesome bonus at level 1. I don't know. But this? This is patching the game by removing a feat slot. Not cool, and not something I'd let into my games.

WotC devs, care to comment? Do I have it totally wrong? I'd love to be mistaken here.

GMforPowergamers · Feb 2, 2009

or...maybe the good people at Wotc were soo careful in PHBI that they now realize that a +1 to hit is NOT a biggenough deal to make or break the game...

in the months I have been playing this edtion I have seen players with 16 prime stats weilding +2 prof weapons...I have seen 20 Dex rouges useing daggers, multi into fighter to take Kensi...becuse that +1 to hit was all important...
Heck I saw fighter/kensi Dragon born with max str in a game with a tac lord/battle captian...he was hitting on 5+ alot of the bad guys...

I also play in the Delve every sunday with new players and old...

I have found there is a LARGE veriance in attacks...and a +1 to hit is not going to be the end of the game...

Herremann the Wise · Feb 2, 2009

I've with the OP here. It is too easy a choice to make (auto selection for most fighter builds). This is a strange move - it would be interesting to hear why they have done this.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

mmu1 · Feb 2, 2009

Herremann the Wise said:
I've with the OP here. It is too easy a choice to make (auto selection for most fighter builds). This is a strange move - it would be interesting to hear why they have done this.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

Some really bizarre stuff makes it into the supplements of every RPG eventually, because editors are only so good, and because there are many RPG writers out there who don't grok the system they're working in nearly as well as your average rules lawyer. (because they're paid to be creative, first and foremost, not for their proficiency at number crunching)

Wik · Feb 2, 2009

the thing I hate about this isn't really the "+1", per se, but that it applies to a specific weapon group. I mean, I like the fact that my fighter can use a huge array of weapons... a feat that encourages weapon specialization in this way kind of bums me out. That being said, I know I'm in the minority when I say I like my characters using a variety of weapons over their careers; most pcs seem to stick to one or two.

As for the bonus itself... yeah, it seems kind of lame. But I don't know if it's an "instant pick". But I won't really judge too much until I have the PHB 2 in my hands... and then if I don't like it, I can always axe it.

(One of the great things about the character builder is I can chop away feats I don't like without having to make some huge master list)

blargney the second · Feb 2, 2009

The rogues in our group frequently hit when they roll a 2, so this would be a mostly useless feat for them. My eladrin warlord would take it once he's taken care of his party-buffing feats. I'd probably want it for my mordenkrad fighter asap.

That's one out of four for whom it's an immediate gimme. Sounds good, but not too ridiculous.
-blarg

Mostlyjoe · Feb 2, 2009

I seem to see this feat benefiting the non-striker/defenders of a group.

Mustrum_Ridcully · Feb 2, 2009

Wik said:
the thing I hate about this isn't really the "+1", per se, but that it applies to a specific weapon group. I mean, I like the fact that my fighter can use a huge array of weapons... a feat that encourages weapon specialization in this way kind of bums me out. That being said, I know I'm in the minority when I say I like my characters using a variety of weapons over their careers; most pcs seem to stick to one or two.

As for the bonus itself... yeah, it seems kind of lame. But I don't know if it's an "instant pick". But I won't really judge too much until I have the PHB 2 in my hands... and then if I don't like it, I can always axe it.

(One of the great things about the character builder is I can chop away feats I don't like without having to make some huge master list)

Two things:
- Weapon Focus already exists. (And there are more, Scimitar Dance, Hammer Rythm)
- Retraining gives you the option to change your weapon of choice each level (well, every 2 if you pick focus). Unless you have a lot of magical weapons available in your level range and can switch without consequences each encounter, that should take care of your concern.

Rechan · Feb 2, 2009

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
Two things:
- Weapon Focus already exists. (And there are more, Scimitar Dance, Hammer Rythm)
- Retraining gives you the option to change your weapon of choice each level (well, every 2 if you pick focus). Unless you have a lot of magical weapons available in your level range and can switch without consequences each encounter, that should take care of your concern.

-Fighter Encounter powers of levels 3, 13 and 23 are comprised solely of powers that key off of certain weapons.
-The Fighter has a class feature that says +1 to either one handed or two handed weapons. That limits your wide array right there.
-Paragon Paths for specific weapon groups exist (Sword Master, Polearm Master, Dreadnought, Dread Reaper, Shield Adept).

Cadfan · Feb 2, 2009

I'm not a fan of this feat.

I like feats that are... interesting. I don't like feats that just shift you a tiny bit on the power curve. I find myself obliged to take them, because I understand math and can tell that my character would benefit more from them than from any other available feat.

But were I designing the game, specializing in a weapon would come in the form of feats like Hammer Rhythm that give you something unique to your weapon, not in fake specialization that gives you the same thing that everyone else gets while restricting your weapon choice so as to fool you into thinking that you've customized your character.

If I were designing 4e, I'd kill Weapon Focus, Weapon Expertise, Toughness, and... and a lot of the superior weapons that don't actually do anything new, and just add a point or half point of damage per [W].

Weapon/Implement Expertise: +1 to-hit?! Yuck!

yesnomu

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GMforPowergamers

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Herremann the Wise

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mmu1

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Wik

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blargney the second

blargney the minute's son

Mostlyjoe

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Mustrum_Ridcully

Hero

Rechan

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Cadfan

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