D&D 4E How to do a 4e Spellthief?

my favourite class is the 3.5E spellthief. I absolutely loved being able to steal an opponent's spells, and then have to figure out on the fly how to use them to best effect. Getting into position to steal a spell, and then carrying it off, was a great thrill.

The class let you steal your enemy's resources and use them against him. But it had a lot of flaws in it's design:

1) It was reliant on the GM. If the GM didn't throw in spellcasters, you were boned.
2) You could really only steal spells, and do some neat magic stuff. The class was too reliant on skills, and didn't have nearly enough skill points (a spellthief had the same points as a bard, and needed to take Spellcraft, Knowledge/Arcana, Hide, Move Silently, Disable Device, Open Lock, Use Magic Device... and you probably wanted Spot, Listen, and Search, as well. Not to mention Bluff, to get your sneak attacks in!)
3) If there wasn't a victom for your steal spells ability, you were pretty much a nerfed rogue. Unless you started stealing spells from an ally, essentially doubling his spellcasting output (which could be fun, but only for a bit).

So, how do you do the spellthief in 4e?

I should mention that I'm interested more in retaining the mechanical flavour of the class, as opposed to the actual look and feel of the class. So, this class should be able to steal any enemy encounter power, and use it as his own.

Some ideas:

1) The class would probably be a controller, with striker tendencies.

2) "Steal Spell" would be a minor action, useable twice per encounter or something like that, and would require combat advantage to hit. I'm thinking it'd be something like "Charisma vs. Will", though that'd make it hard to use against actual spell-using enemies. Charisma vs. AC might work better. It has to be a close-range attack.

3) Once you steal a power, it takes the slot of one of your encounter powers of the same or higher level. So, if you steal an encounter power from a level 5 monster, you would lose a level 5 encounter power (or higher) and get that power in it's place. To encourage this, many spellthief encounter powers would be pretty low-key.
Or, as a variant, if you stole a power from a heroic tier monster, it would have to replace a heroic tier encounter power (or daily, if you happen to steal a daily power).
If you steal a power, the monster loses it, just as if they had used it. It cannot recharge until the spellthief uses the power, though they should only have "Until the end of your next turn" to use the power.

4) Spellthief powers should be concerned primarily with stealing things like resistances, auras, and the like. And moving them around. They should also get a few mage-like powers. No huge damage powers, and none of the usual controller-like area attacks.

5) Prime abilities should be Charisma, Intelligence, and Dexterity. It should be a light armour class that uses simple weapons, just like in 3e.

6) A big problem would be figuring out the attack numbers for stolen powers. If I steal an attack that is "+7 vs. Will", how do I quickly figure out my attack numbers for it? I think the basic way to do it would be to say "If an attack targets AC, use this number; if it targets a different defence, use this number; if it targets only one foe, add 2" or something like that. It's a simple way of doing things, but it would probably work.

7) Y'know, it should probably have a few lurker-like abilities as utility powers, because this class is pretty much a lurker controller.

8) It'd need an implement. I don't know if the 4e spellthief would really be all that arcane (because it could, in theory, steal a dragon's breath weapon), so a wand might be a weird implement to use.


....thoughts? Opinions? Things I've missed?

Which book was the 3.5 version in? This sounds like it would be interesting to convert, but could be very tricky to keep balanced.

Dragongrief said:

Which book was the 3.5 version in? This sounds like it would be interesting to convert, but could be very tricky to keep balanced.

Click to expand...

Complete Adventurer.

And yeah, it could be very difficult to balance. I would aim at defaulting the class to be slightly weaker than it's companions, just because it has the ability to really shine in many different encounters.

Looking the class over, I'd say it might be better to go light on the Class Features and have the Powers remain balanced. That way they're still competent if there isn't anyone to steal from, they're just not as versatile.

Sneak Attack
As Rogue feature, but +1d6 instead.

Spell Theft
You may use the Steal Spell ability.

Steal Spell
At-Will * Arcane
Standard Action Melee 1
Target: One Creature
Attack: Dexterity vs Reflex
Hit: You may steal an at-will or encounter spell from the target. You may use the stolen ability before the end of your next turn, with your Intelligence as the attack ability. If it is an encounter power, you must sacrifice an encounter power of equal or higher level to use it.

This would still require an explanation of how it affects monters - how to determine what is a "spell", are their basic attacks considered "at-wills", etc. - but it would be my recommendation at a starting point.

One more Class Feature might be good to add. The Class's powers should be a mix of Dex based melee weapon powers and Charisma based spell powers.

The biggest problem I foresee is that monster's don't have "spells" anymore. They use totally different mechanics from players. And since monster powers don't list a power source (one of my few grudges with how they do monsters in 4e), it's purely up to the DM to decide whether a monster power is a "spell" or not.

Another issue is that "spells" are now arcane powers only. Divine casters use "prayers", and primal casters use something else. You could say that you steal any non-martial power, but then again, barbarians are primal characters, and I don't think anyone would consider what they do to be "spells" of any sort! Ditto with most Paladin prayers. You could perhaps exclude powers with the weapon keyword, but you're already going to be building up a rather long list of exceptions.

4e is so different from previous editions in how they handle spellcasting that it will be very difficult to create a spell thief that is anything like the old one.

Hmmm, yeah, I don't really see how you could create a balanced and playable class around this in 4e. The spell stealing ability itself would probably work OK for a MONSTER, but between the fact that it would be a nightmare to adjudicate it when used by a PC and the fact that it would be nigh on impossible to make a balanced class out of it seems to make it rather a non-starter. I never played 3.5e and so I don't know, but it sounds like it didn't work too great even in that system. It is nice in a conceptual sense, but ugly in a game mechanical one.

This is a good idea, and not a bad start.

Here's how I'd structure it:
- At-Wills: melee stabbing, 'steal' rechargeable powers, which recharge Encounter powers.
- Encounter powers: Mobility, ranged, and area effects (no melee). Low damage, since we expect you to get them back regularly.
- Daily powers: melee, steals bigger things, like sight and action points.

Implement: Follow the Sorcerer here, and just say Light Blades. That fits with stabby Rogues, too.

Role: Striker (with some Controller).

Sneak Attack: As Rogue, but only melee attacks, only light blades, and only +1d6 damage.
At 11th level, increase to +2d6 damage.
At 21st level, increase to +4d6 damage.

Steal Power: Many of your powers contain the Theft keyword. You gain any Theft benefit listed if you hit with the power and your attack deals sneak attack damage.

Key Abilities: Dexterity, and either Con or Cha.


... and then leave the actual theft mechanics up to each individual power:

[h3]At Will[/h3]

Pilfer Power
At-Will • Arcane, Theft, Weapon
Standard • Melee Weapon
Special: You must be wielding a light blade.
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC
Hit: [w] damage
Theft: Regain the use of one expended Spellthief Encounter Attack or Encounter Utility power.
Special: At 21st level, deal 2[w] damage instead.

Sap Resistance
At-Will • Arcane, Theft, Weapon
Standard • Melee Weapon
Special: You must be wielding a light blade.
Attack: Dexterity vs. Will
Hit: [w]+Dex damage
Theft: Lower the target's resistance to one damage type by up to 5 points until the end of your next round. You gain resist 5 against that damage type.
Special: At 11th level, you lower (and gain) 10 points of resistance instead of 5.
At 21st level, deal 2[w]+Dex damage, and you lower (and gain) 15 points of resistance.

Steal Vitality
At-Will •Arcane, Theft, Weapon
Standard • Melee Weapon
Special: You must be wielding a light blade.
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: [w]+Dex damage, and the target suffers a -2 to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
Theft: Gain temporary hit points equal to your Con modifier.
Special: At 11th level, gain temporary hit points equal to 3+Con.
At 21st level, deal 2[w]+Dex damage, and gain temporary hit points equal to 6+Con.


[h3]Encounter 1[/h3]

Deathly Doubt
Encounter • Arcane, Implement, Necrotic, Psychic
Standard • Close blast 3
Target: Creatures in burst
Attack: Dexterity vs. Will
Hit: 1d6+Cha Necrotic and Psychic damage, and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn.

Entropic Warding
Encounter • Arcane, Necrotic
Immediate Interrupt • Close burst 1
Trigger: You are hit by an attack by an enemy within range.
Effect: You gain a +2 power bonus to AC and Reflex until the end of your next turn. The triggering attacker suffers 1d4+Con necrotic damage.

Path of Frost
Encounter •Arcane, Cold
Move • Personal
Effect: Move up to your speed. You gain a +4 power bonus to AC against opportunity attacks for the duration of your movement. If a foe misses you with an opportunity attack granted by this movement, that foe suffers 1d4+Con cold damage.


[h3]Daily 1[/h3]

Soul Link
Daily •Arcane, Healing, Necrotic, Theft, Weapon
Standard • Melee Weapon
Special: You must be wielding a light blade.
Attack: Dex vs. AC
Hit: 2[w]+Dex necrotic damage
Theft: Ongoing 5 necrotic damage (save ends), and until the end of the encounter, every time the target takes necrotic damage you heal damage equal to your Con modifier.

Steal Sight
Daily • Arcane, Theft, Weapon
Standard • Melee Weapon
Special: You must be wielding a light blade.
Attack: Dex vs. Reflex
Hit: 3[w]+Dex damage
Theft: The target is blind (save ends). Until the end of the encounter, you can treat the target's square as your own for the purpose of determining line-of-sight (but not line-of-effect).

- - -

Whaddya think?

Cheers, -- N

Nifft said:

Whaddya think?

Cheers, -- N

Click to expand...

I think it's a good start - especially the steal resistances at-will. I think I'll use some of those minor steals for at-will powers - I haven't figured out the exacts.

As for the powers, I was kind of thinking that this class wouldn't really be a SPELLthief anymore - but more of a general power thief. In other words, it'd steal a weapon encounter power just as easily as a dragon's breath. Maybe a mimic of sorts?

I like the idea of a "theft" keyword. A character could use a theft encounter power to steal an at-will, and a daily to steal an encounter. Or, as Nifft mentioned, it could steal powers to power it's own - a sort of "Life force" thief. A sort of Controller that has to be a striker to power it's encounter powers.

I'm going to have to draft up something, here. I think it's an interesting design challenge - to make a balanced "ability thief" class. And I think I'll be using your at-wills as a starting place, Nifft.

But I do want this class to be able to steal another creature's powers in some way. I think it may be necessary to limit that to encounter powers, rather than giving the class a basic power that allows this.

Problem with the concept of the Spellthief in 4E.

There is a problem with the whole concept of the Spellthief in 4E.

In 3.5, we all knew spellcasters were overpowered. Spells had their own mechanism. They worked essentially different from everything else. In 4E, every power not of the martial origin is magic - but they are no longer as special or powerful as they were earlier. The idea of stealing spells to balance out the power of spellcasters is simply not viable in 4E.

I can see a class that focuses on mimicking and perhaps even neutralizing the powers of his opponents- but he would be using magic, not stealing magic. Such a power would reasonably work just as well against all origins, or we suddenly give the Martial origin an advantage. And who can really say if the power a monster uses is martial or not, anyway?

Another problem is that this gets into the polymorph quagmire of 3.5. A power that might be reasonable and balanced when a creature sues it might be wildly overpowered in the hands of a PC.

I'm not saying a 4E spellthief cannot be done - I'm saying you have to start from scratch, have to rename it (Power Mimic, perhaps) and focus it on stealing/imitating specific daily and encounter powers. Also, as I see you've noted above, it needs a sold base of its own to stand on, with powers it can always use.

Yeah, it might be possible to build a class that uses the concept of "Life Stealing", as you've outlined. There are still some serious issues though.

Consider: When you remove the ability of a monster to use a power, that IN AND OF ITSELF is a pretty useful benefit. Thus any OTHER benefit the character gets from this needs to be VERY minor. The problem then is that if say the Life Stealer burns an encounter power, what would it be able to do with it? It obviously cannot gain an encounter power of its own, that's too good. OTOH it makes no sense from a game mechanics standpoint to give the character an at-will in return since at-wills are already AT-WILL. Using a daily to steal a monster encounter power use would work, you can now 'recharge' an encounter power of your own and that might work, but even high level characters have a pretty limited number of dailies.

That sort of says to me that the power stealing aspect is going to HAVE to be pretty limited in scope just from a game mechanics standpoint. It would be a kind of neato trick, but you could only play that trick once in a great while.

The other fundamental issue that would need to be overcome is that a LOT of monsters simply don't have any sort of powers that would be much good to steal. I suppose there is likely going to be A monster in each encounter with something worth stealing. However will it really be likely the character is going to have a viable opportunity to use this much? If the character has to make a weapon type attack to do the steal that means they will have to get up close to the BBEG monster that has good powers, and do it FAST because it makes little sense tactically for most monsters to hold off on using their encounter/recharge powers. In 99% of the battles I've run the monsters generally tend to blast off with their big guns on round 2 or so. Why should they really wait? Is the DM now going to be faced with thinking "yeah, if I use the BBEG's best power right away I'm nerfing the stealer..." It is rather putting the DM in a position where he has to almost do the party a 'favor' to make the class really viable.

Those problems may be less acute at higher tiers where everything has oodles of powers and characters often have plenty of abilities that let them move freely about the battlefield, but at low level a stealer is going to be hard to run.

You could 'chrome' a bunch of basically existing marshal powers. In other words maybe you could have a daily that does 2[W] damage and lets the pc gain 1[W] in temphp or something. Its pretty close to Comeback Strike in effectiveness. Modeling on Spinning Sweep would give you something like an encounter power that does 1[W] and allows you to trigger a surge.

Another idea that might work is 'keyword stealing', if a monster has an attack power with keyword Fire then you could steal his power and add a Fire keyword to one of your attacks. HS stealing might also be viable, technically ALL monsters have at least 1 HS. Stealing it would do basically nothing to weaken the monster, but it would give you a valuable resource you could use later. AP stealing OTOH seems too nasty at high levels and worthless at heroic.

The final challenge is going to be coming up with enough of these stealing powers. A class needs something like 80 odd powers. Given the narrow scope and constraints of a stealer it may be a tough job to come up with enough stealing effects to make a good class. (Personally I think this is 4e's biggest weakness, the game doesn't scale well because EVERY class requires an entire list of unique powers. It would be a stronger system if powers hadn't been 'attached' to specific classes and instead formed a single list or lists by power source with some sort of keyword based mechanism to filter out which class can use what).