D&D 4E How to do a 4e Spellthief?

[Mentat55]

Using Omnifarious Grey's example above, here is the proposed class feature steal power:

Steal Power Spellthief Class Feature
At-Will * Arcane, Implement
Minor action (Special) Melee touch
Special: You can only use this power once per round.
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Will
Hit: The target cannot use or recharge one encounter, daily, or recharge power (chosen at random by the DM) until the end of your next turn. In addition, you gain 1 power charge. If the target does not have any encounter, daily, or recharge powers, you do not gain a charge.

Notes:
(1) Not sure what the main attack stat for a spellthief should be. Dexterity, Intelligence, and Charisma seem like the most appropriate choices.
(2) Should this be a minor or standard action? If it is a minor action, should it be usable more than 1/round?
(3) How long should the power charge persist? I am leaning towards charges disappear when you take a short or extended rest (basically until the end of the encounter).

So the spellthief prevents the monster/NPC from using or recharging one power (not at-will) during its next turn. This offers some form of control or, one may argue, even be a bit of defender. So what does the spellthief do with this charge?

Here is an example at-will:

Ghostknife Spellthief Attack Level 1
At-Will * Arcane, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: 1[W] damage, and you gain the insubstantial quality against the next attack made against you before the start of your next turn.
Special (1 power charge): You deal an additional 1d6 damage.
Increase damage to 2[W] at 21st level.

Notes:
(1) I think some powers could use max 1 charge for a special rider, and some powers could use N charges, mainly to stack on extra damage (I am assuming a spellthief is a striker).
(2) Should the class have a class feature that lets you spend power charges on melee attacks to do extra damage, maybe 1d6 per charge? Should it be less, like 1d4 per charge, since the spellthief is interfering with a monster's ability to attack?

 

[Mentat55]

And here is an encounter power:

Strip Resistance Spellthief Attack 1
Encounter * Arcane, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. If the creature has any resistances, you reduce one of its resistances by 5 (your choice). A resistance cannot be reduced below 0.
Special (1 power charge): You gain resist 5 to whatever damage type you reduced with your attack. If you did not reduce any of the creature's resistances, you cannot gain this benefit.

 

[Mentat55]

One last post before I actually do work, you know, at work.

Things that a spellthief might be able to "steal":
1. Senses (all-around vision, blindsight, darkvision, low-light vision, tremorsense, truesight)
2. Auras
3. Attack keywords, like fire, radiant, or poison, and get a generic "elemental" attack
4. Terrain walk
5. Insubstantial and phasing
6. Resistances and immunities
7. Regeneration and more generally powers with the healing keyword
8. Teleportation powers and movement mode

Question: how do you let a spellthief steal these powers in a rules-concise manner, and yet not leave the spellthief with powers that are useless against creatures that do not have this abilities?

I see the spellthief as a striker that really focuses on the monsters with cool powers -- minions and brutes are someone else's business. But a spellthief should find most of this attack powers to be useful most of the time.

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

One last post before I actually do work, you know, at work.

Things that a spellthief might be able to "steal":
1. Senses (all-around vision, blindsight, darkvision, low-light vision, tremorsense, truesight)
2. Auras
3. Attack keywords, like fire, radiant, or poison, and get a generic "elemental" attack
4. Terrain walk
5. Insubstantial and phasing
6. Resistances and immunities
7. Regeneration and more generally powers with the healing keyword
8. Teleportation powers and movement mode

Question: how do you let a spellthief steal these powers in a rules-concise manner, and yet not leave the spellthief with powers that are useless against creatures that do not have this abilities?

I see the spellthief as a striker that really focuses on the monsters with cool powers -- minions and brutes are someone else's business. But a spellthief should find most of this attack powers to be useful most of the time.

I agree with you here and I also want to say that you have a good idea going with these powers.

I believe that there should be some ambiguity with a lot of their powers. Perhaps make the ability to steal certain abilities based on tier level. For example, auras or immunities may come at a higher tier while resistances and damage types may come at lets say the heroic tier. This was you would have choices to possible things you can steal, maybe one class feature you could choose.

Another idea would be to have a focus simply on gaining effects from the power charges to emulate abilities of creatures without having to steal them specifically. This could be things such as gaining energy subtypes to attacks or defensive resistances initially.

I also think the idea of having most encounters being general and have the daily powers have some of the big umph (technical terminology) and cooler effects.

 

[Siberys]

Origins and creature types / subtypes also present a possibility for theft; certain powers might have variable effects based whether the target is aberrant, undead, elemental, etc.

 

[Mentat55]

Good point; the life-stealer, with its sparks, has something like this already.

 

[Cadfan]

For what its worth, the primary purpose of the spellthief in the 3e game where one of our players had one was NOT to steal enemy spells. It was to steal his allies spells. It basically let the party double cast arcane spells in the first round of combat.

 

[Cadfan]

Oh.

And here's what I'd do to create a spellthief in 4e. I'd give up on the specific concept of stealing specific abilities, and instead create a character that leaches away his enemy's energy in order to augment himself. I'd be going for a general spellthief *feel* instead of a specific spellthief rewrite. And I'd redo the trigger for a spellthief using his spell-thiefery. Sneak attack didn't quite... make sense. I'd go with the idea that the spellthief is stealing the attack straight from his enemy's mind, after he sees the enemy use it. And just to really anger people who love continuity, I'd make the class Psionic.

Every time an enemy used a rechargable power, I'd let the spellthief steal its energies. A stolen rechargable power doesn't recharge. Then I'd give the spellthief a suite of powers that are only usable when he's stolen something, and only when he's stolen a specific something. So maybe he has a particular melee attack that he can only use when he's stolen a power that has the melee keyword. Or another that he can only use when he's stolen a power that dealt elemental damage. The idea would be that the spellthief wasn't stealing specific spells or attacks, but rather that he was stealing magical energies or physical acumen.

And I'd probably change the name.

I know that might not satisfy a hard core spellthief fan, but I think it would be the best way to accomplish the general look and feel of the class with a minimum of fuss.

 

[Omnifarious Grey]

Oh.

And here's what I'd do to create a spellthief in 4e. I'd give up on the specific concept of stealing specific abilities, and instead create a character that leaches away his enemy's energy in order to augment himself. I'd be going for a general spellthief *feel* instead of a specific spellthief rewrite. And I'd redo the trigger for a spellthief using his spell-thiefery. Sneak attack didn't quite... make sense. I'd go with the idea that the spellthief is stealing the attack straight from his enemy's mind, after he sees the enemy use it. And just to really anger people who love continuity, I'd make the class Psionic.

Every time an enemy used a rechargable power, I'd let the spellthief steal its energies. A stolen rechargable power doesn't recharge. Then I'd give the spellthief a suite of powers that are only usable when he's stolen something, and only when he's stolen a specific something. So maybe he has a particular melee attack that he can only use when he's stolen a power that has the melee keyword. Or another that he can only use when he's stolen a power that dealt elemental damage. The idea would be that the spellthief wasn't stealing specific spells or attacks, but rather that he was stealing magical energies or physical acumen.

And I'd probably change the name.

I know that might not satisfy a hard core spellthief fan, but I think it would be the best way to accomplish the general look and feel of the class with a minimum of fuss.

This is an interesting idea, though I believe this would be more in line for another type of class that is similar. The idea we have going seems to be playing a more active role in getting their power from creatures rather than having them come to them when enemies attack.

Although, I do like the idea of augmentation of your character and the idea of grabbing abilities from you allies. The only issue I can see with taking power from your allies is how one would do it to A. not ruin a teammate's abilities (especially since their is a big teamwork emphasis in 4e) and B. how you would determine what happens when you "borrow" power from an ally.

Though this would be a good class build if we can think of it.