Rogue multiclass into Ranger?

Eolin · Feb 24, 2009

I'm going to be playing a rogue in an upcoming 4e game. He's a Brutual Scoundrel.

Question is: How well would I be served in taking the ranger multiclass feat? I'd get (up to) another 2d6 damage in each encounter against a chosen enemy.

Is that worthwhile?

Where would it rank amongst the following:
Improved Initiative
BackStabber
Weapon Focus
Two-Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Defense

... is it after all five of these? Or where?

Thanks,
Eolin.

Herschel · Feb 24, 2009

The two classes I'm not a fan of Improved Initiative for are warlord & rogue. As a rogue in melee, you need flankers. That generally means them getting in to position first. I'd go Toughness and maybe even Durable before Improved Initiative for your character.

Black Knight Irios · Feb 24, 2009

First I need to know which weapon (dagger/rapier/etc.) you intend to use plus your PP if possible, so far I would give you no tipps at all.

Saeviomagy · Feb 24, 2009

Herschel said:
The two classes I'm not a fan of Improved Initiative for are warlord & rogue. As a rogue in melee, you need flankers. That generally means them getting in to position first. I'd go Toughness and maybe even Durable before Improved Initiative for your character.

As a rogue, if you go before your enemies, you do NOT need flankers. You gain combat advantage against foes you go before during the surprise round AND against any non-surprising foe you beat on initiative in the first round of combat. Further, you can feel free to make use of that combat advantage with a ranged weapon if you'd rather wait for the front-liners to get stuck in.

Finally there's the fact that beating everyone on initiative can mean defensive benefits and not just offensive ones. Being able to attack with CA AND move to a defensive position can prevent a lot of incoming damage.

The ranger multiclass is a good strong feat. Think of the quarry damage as 7 rounds of weapon focus (ie - most of most combats) all in two rounds. It's 3.5 rounds of backstabber damage. The extra skill can come in very handy too.

Oh, you missed nimble blade off your list of great rogue feats. The extra +1 to hit it grants with CA is very good for a rogue.

corwyn77 · Feb 24, 2009

For my rogue I took MC ranger first because I wanted the skill.

If that isn't the main issue, I would take both nimble blade and backstabber first, then MC. I don't really consider a feat for 1 damage (weapon focus) per round (at best) worth a feat this early in the game.

If defense is more important than damage then TWF/TWD may be worth it early but i find the price too steep. Otherwise just pick up a Mage's Weapon parrying dagger in a level or two.

Improved init is good, especially if you have trouble flanking for whatever reason. Otherwise it can wait for NB/BS/MC. Rogue init is already pretty decent.

WalterKovacs · Feb 24, 2009

Backstabber will arguably give you more damage per encounter. TWD you can't get without TWF, and until you hit paragon, both Weapon Focus and TWF give (essentially) the same bonus, since a rogue will rarely be attacking with the off hand weapon unless they have a specific reason to do so.

The 2d6 gives you effectively 7 extra damage. Hitting 4 times with sneak attack makes backstabber better. Hitting 7 times with any attack makes weapon focus/TWF better than the ranger power. [And if you hit multiple times in a turn, for example with riposte strike, you wouldn't get the benefit of SA or quarry, but still get the WF/TWF]. So, if you expect to be hitting at least 7 times per encounter, you'll likely be getting better use out of backstabber, WF, and TWF. TWD has to do with whether you prefer defense to damage. Improved Initiative [or Quickdraw, as a way of making sure you get your TWF/TWD turned on easier] is one that is pretty iffy.

In the long run, multiclassing into ranger depends in part on whether you want to go further, such as taking powerswap feats, or if you could use that additional trained skill. If you wait/retrain to ranger later on, you can get a bit more later, as in paragon tier you'll be getting 4d6 over the course of two turns, which has backstabber and TWF fall behind damage wise. Weapon Focus keeps the pace though.

Herschel · Feb 24, 2009

Saeviomagy said:
As a rogue, if you go before your enemies, you do NOT need flankers. You gain combat advantage against foes you go before during the surprise round AND against any non-surprising foe you beat on initiative in the first round of combat. Further, you can feel free to make use of that combat advantage with a ranged weapon if you'd rather wait for the front-liners to get stuck in.

Then your DMs tend to be different than the ones I play with and games I run. Counting on surprise is iffy, at best. As for those times you want to go first, the rogue DEX essentially gives you Improved Initiative already. I've found rogues generally do better when they let the battlefield set up in front of them, let the minions and opposing roles be discerned some and being more surgical. If the defender already took a hit, it makes the opposing choice of who to swing at that much tougher. If a baddie breaks through and goes after the Controller, the rogue can go after it while the front-liners do their thing.

Prism · Feb 24, 2009

Herschel said:
Then your DMs tend to be different than the ones I play with and games I run. Counting on surprise is iffy, at best.

The rogue gets combat advantage if it goes first, regardless of if the party gets surprise or not. Only if the rogue gets surprised do they lose this benefit

I would say its very important that a rogue gets a high initiative. If they don't want to go into combat at first then shot a crossbow or throw a dagger

Herschel · Feb 25, 2009

Prism said:
The rogue gets combat advantage if it goes first, regardless of if the party gets surprise or not. Only if the rogue gets surprised do they lose this benefit

I acknowledged that. Still, in my experience, letting the battlefield set up is usually good for a rogue, especially when there are other very good feats available, his high DEX and especially if there's a warlord is usually sufficient to get him ahead of some baddies when that's advantagious.

Mengu · Feb 25, 2009

It'll depend on what weapon you want to use. Rapier is not a bad choice. With nible blade, you can make up the difference in attack bonus, and by picking more 2[W] encounter and daily powers, you can make the most of it. You could also sacrifice some other defenses and go start with a 20 dexterity. If you go this route, and go for quick and high damage, Ranger multiclass is great. So:

Weapon Prof. Rapier
Backstabber
Nimble Blade
Warrior of the Wild
Improved Initiative

Or if you want to go for the longer haul, and want to balance out your offense and defense, you could go with:

Backstabber
Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense
Weapon Focus Light Blades
Toughness or Durable

There is no one right answer obviously. And all the planning in the world sometimes doesn't pan out for the game you're playing, and you decide to go a different route. I think it's best to just play the game for a while, and decide which way you want to go. There is always retraining.