Rogue multiclass into Ranger?

[mattdm]

Question is: How well would I be served in taking the ranger multiclass feat? I'd get (up to) another 2d6 damage in each encounter against a chosen enemy.

Is that worthwhile?

From a Building the Most Awesome Optimized Character, it may not be worthwhile. The multiclass feats are nothing like a level dip in 3E. Since feats aren't generally a terribly big deal, it's not going to be a misstep to take it, but the main focus should be on is this where you want to go with the character?

If you're not interested in that, probably another feat will be a bit stronger.

 

[Smeelbo]

Ranger M/C is probably the best overall initial M/C feat, because it lets you get any Ranger skill, including Perception, and Hunter's Quarry applies to any attack that damages. Thematicly, it goes well with the concept of being a "scout," and gives you access to Nature, if that skill is valuable to you.

If you were really serious about M/C Ranger, Paragon Multi-Classing gets you Twin Strike, which you might like. However, I am skeptical whether it is worth the investment.

Backstabber is very good, as is Nimble Blade. Depending on how strict your DM is regarding thrown weapons, you might need Quick Draw. I tend to do my M/C at first level, because it is usually part of my character concept, even though this can be sub-optimal. If you plan on depending on Stealth, Skill Focus is worth considering.

I am not sure Weapon Focus and Two Weapon Fighting are worth the cost of two feats, considering you will already dish it out. Extra capabilities, or covering a weakness, might be better than marginally pushing your damage output.

Smeelbo

 

[Eldorian]

May want to consider instead the fighter multiclass feat from martial power, and the shock trooper paragon path martial power for a brutal rogue. If your str starts at 16 and gets boosted up every time, then your str attacks from the paragon powers will be fine, and the paragon ability that increases all offhand weapons (ie most of what you use as a rogue, barring the rapier) by a damage die. In fact, with this paragon path kukri is a very good weapon, and a nifty weapon image wise.

The fighter multiclass power is great when you miss an attack and your fighter, if you have one, has the target marked. He attacks the fighter, you attack him, and if you didn't deal your SA damage due to a miss, you get another chance to deal it with the challenge type attack from your multiclass. Feat does require 13 wis tho, which is fine if you're doing elf brutal rogue, but requires more points than you might want to expend otherwise.

As for which feats improve you the most, I'd say backstabber, nimble blade, two weapon fighting and defense (fighting is so so, but defense is good). I'd take the mutliclass feat early only if I wanted the extra skill early (I'd grab athletics from fighter, and pick a different rogue skill). Otherwise, I'd take it at 10 so I could qualify for Shock Trooper, which is my favorite PP for a brutal rogue.

 

[Eolin]

Thanks for the responses, everyone. And apologies for the time delay.

There seems to be a lot of divergent opinion on how optimal the various excellent feats are.

For the character, I'd like to have optimal damage (and conditions) output, even sacrificing damage at the risk of some defenses.

Though, perhaps oddly, I'm still planning on con 12 and cha 12.

He's largely an assassin / secret agent, so I'd like to maximize damage. The ranger feats would also let me finish out the skills I'd like for him to have. Simply put, I think he needs a total of 8 trained skills to be the sort of secret agent I'd like for him to be.

That being said, I'd willing to reduce some of his skills (perhaps he's just not trained in, for instance, perception, just yet) to up overall damage per encounter, or to maximize the chance of a truly damaging first strike.

This is why I was looking at the ranger feat: Additional damage that can be directed at a particular foe, making it possible to do even more damage. This also lets me pick up all the skills I want. A win-win.

The character is going to be human, so there are also the human feats. As great as Action Surge is, since sneak attack only happens once a round, I'm not sure if this is as useful as it is for other classes.

As for weapon selection, I was thinking the dagger. It can seemingly be hidden better than a rapier, and its easy to carry quite a few of them.

As for the other feats, here's why I want each:
Improved Initiative: First Strike. A rogue going before the target he has decided to take out is a huge deal.

Nimble Blade: I had forgotten about this one when I first posted. Another +1 to attack roles seems good ... but could it be overkill? At first level, without NB, he's got +8 to-hit with daggers. If the average AC is 15, he only need a 7. There seems to be diminishing rewards with the to-hot bonus continuing to increase.

BackStabber: Damage++ 2d8 feels, in the hand, a lot heftier than 2d6.
Weapon Focus: Damage increase FTW.

Two-Weapon Fighting: If I go with two daggers, this is another way to increase damage. It could be either that or keep the hand free for potions, which seems unnecessary.

Two-Weapon Defense: As I'm planning to stick around in melee, increasing AC a bit might be worthwhile.

Quick Draw: I do like the notion of there not being an action to draw potions and daggers. The initiative bonus is also nice. Does it stack with Improved Initiative, or are they both feat bonuses?

I hadn't given much thought to Weapon Proficiency. Are the weapons in the Adventurer's Vault better for the rogue than the simple dagger?

Skill Focus is another interesting idea, as I do plan for him to be fairly sealthy.

Other multiclass feat: I don't know. I like the ranger one as it increases damage done to a specific enemy. It could make me a striker on steroids, which would be great. The fighter one seems overly limited: +1 on one attack doesn't do it for me.

Those are my thoughts. Am I crazy, half-baked, or does this seem not far from pretty decent?

 

[Herschel]

Are you planning on going solo after marks? Or as part of the party? Soloing is really odd in 4E. Brutes and soldiers likely take you out in one-on-ones because you simply won't have the durability.

For weapon switching and solo work, I would definitely take Quick Draw over Improved Initiative. You won't have a healer handy and they do not stack.

 

[Istar]

I thought "Two Weapon Fighting" and "Weapon Focus" dont stack as they both give a bonus to weapon damage ?

 

[Mentat55]

I thought "Two Weapon Fighting" and "Weapon Focus" dont stack as they both give a bonus to weapon damage ?

Two-Weapon Fighting grants an untyped bonus to damage, so it stacks with the feat bonus to damage from Weapon Focus.

 

[Eolin]

Are you planning on going solo after marks? Or as part of the party? Soloing is really odd in 4E. Brutes and soldiers likely take you out in one-on-ones because you simply won't have the durability.

For weapon switching and solo work, I would definitely take Quick Draw over Improved Initiative. You won't have a healer handy and they do not stack.

There will probably be the occasional one-on-one session with the GM, where my character is given a "mission". Whether that is "watch this person" or "eliminate this threat" will really depend.

So, yes, Quick Draw looks like the way to go.

 

[Kinneus]

Ranger M/C is probably the best overall initial M/C feat, because it lets you get any Ranger skill, including Perception, and Hunter's Quarry applies to any attack that damages.

You guys are aware that the Rancer multiclass feat has been errata'd, right?

Warrior of the Wild [Addition]
Player’s Handbook, page 208
Add the following sentence to the end of the second paragraph of the benefit section: “The target
you designate as your quarry remains your quarry until the end of your next turn.”​

So you get to do an extra 1d6 damage (maybe 2d6 if you're lucky enough to hit twice, or maybe 0 if you're unlucky enough to miss twice). If you're interested in using your MC feat to get a boost to damage, the Rogue M/C is superior to the Ranger's in almost everyway. Same damage, but guaranteed, and doesn't cost you an action.
Your point about Ranger skills, however, is quite apt. Perception, Athletics and Nature are all very useful skills. In fact, they're so useful that depending on the character, I might be willing to sink a feat into Skill Training and save my Multiclass for something else!

 

[Eolin]

You guys are aware that the Rancer multiclass feat has been errata'd, right?

So you get to do an extra 1d6 damage (maybe 2d6 if you're lucky enough to hit twice, or maybe 0 if you're unlucky enough to miss twice). If you're interested in using your MC feat to get a boost to damage, the Rogue M/C is superior to the Ranger's in almost everyway. Same damage, but guaranteed, and doesn't cost you an action.
Your point about Ranger skills, however, is quite apt. Perception, Athletics and Nature are all very useful skills. In fact, they're so useful that depending on the character, I might be willing to sink a feat into Skill Training and save my Multiclass for something else!

Err... Except the character in question is going to be a rogue. And wasn't there a similar modification to the rogue multiclass feat? If not, then you still need to worry about CA, which rangers don't need need to.

No, I think I'll continue to go with the ranger MC feat to maximize first strike capabilities.